Borax substitute in Lot-O

[jimg]

The popular formulae for a Lot-O seem to all use a tbsp of borax in stages 3 and 4. 

I typically pour the waste water, mud, and grit from my rotaries down a grassy hill at the end of my driveway. I don’t want to do this with borax in the mix. 

Is there a suitable substitute for the borax?  Maybe dish soap or shaved Ivory soap?

[python]

I am a newbie, so take with a grain of salt. But I think that you can use sugar instead of Borax.

My understanding is that Borax is used to help the grit stick to the rocks like a thickener. I read somewhere that you can use sugar the same way.

I'm sure that the more experienced members will chime in and let us both know for sure. And if I'm wrong, what can be used. 👍

[jimg]

Makes sense.

[gemfeller]

Back in the long-ago days when I tumbled stones they made a thickening product called Tumble-Tabs. It did a great job but seem to be no longer available. I've often wondered what ingredients were used in them. Anyone know?

[liveoak]

I use clay kitty liter for thickening in my rotary.
You can buy it in Wally world - no perfume or additives.

I stole some from my husband's bin, he has for oil spills.

I use 1 TBSP in a 3 lb rotary.

Patty

[jimg]

I am seeing a couple schools of thought as I come across more anecdotal information.

One is that the borax serves as a wetting agent. This ideas suggests to me that a few drops of liquid detergent might be a good substitute. (I use untreated well water, which is very hard, for my tumbling, so I am hesitant to use a true “soap” for fear of getting a coating of soap scum on my rocks).

Another is that the borax serves as a slurry thickener (since not much mud is created in the prepolish and polish stages). This idea suggests that sugar, psyllium, or kitty litter could be used.

[jimg]

For those like me who are averse to using borax, this article might be helpful

rocktumbler.com/blog/borax/

[waterboysh]

I needed to be able to dump my rinse water into the lawn so this is what I use. I found it from ingawh 's post here. You're using hand soap and psyllium husk powder to create a slurry.


For medium grit I use 2 tsp of 220 SiC. I add 1 tsp when I start, and the second tsp several hours later (usually like 4 - 6) and typically only run it for 1 day. Then I do 1/4 tsp of 500 AO, 1/4 tsp of psyllium husk powder, and 5 pumps of hand soap. I do the same thing for the polish stage. I usually run these stages two days each. I find that after about 24 hours, the slurry has thinned out a little to much. I think this is from the friction of the rocks heating up the slurry. I usually add a little bit of psyllium at this point. It's probably like 1/8 of a tsp. It's also really easy to add to much water and thin the slurry to much. If the movement is good, don't add water even if it looks like it needs it.

Here are two different batches at different stages. The first is Tiger's Eye in 500 AO after about 48 hours. The second is Obsidian and also 500 AO, but after only a few hours.

 

[jimg]

Very helpful. Thanks.

I found ingawh’s post just recently (after I posted my initial query). My Lot-o is running right now with 220 SiC, psyllium, and a little bit of Dawn. The slurry is very nice!

The motion of the rocks/ceramics isn’t as much as the videos I see online. My barrel isn’t as full as it maybe should be, and I think I may have added too much water with my squirt bottle. Or, I may need to adjust the position of the dowel. Lot-o variables.

[waterboysh]

Aug 5, 2024 12:08:24 GMT -5 jimg said:

Very helpful. Thanks.

I found ingawh’s post just recently (after I posted my initial query). My Lot-o is running right now with 220 SiC, psyllium, and a little bit of Dawn. The slurry is very nice!

The motion of the rocks/ceramics isn’t as much as the videos I see online. My barrel isn’t as full as it maybe should be, and I think I may have added too much water with my squirt bottle. Or, I may need to adjust the position of the dowel. Lot-o variables.

If you have no moved your dowel, you very well might need to. I constantly had issues with my movement stalling after 12 - 24 hours before I did. 

I would not add anything to the 220 grit. It will make its own slurry. If you want to see some progression... here is the Tiger's Eye from above with no grit added. First video is before dowel adjustment and the second one is after.



 

Here it is after 46 hours running in 120/220 SiC




I do add a little bit of soap to the 220 stage when doing Obsidian though. This is 2 pumps of soap, 1 tsp of 220, and 1/8 tsp of psyllium.

[oregon]

Has anyone actually suffered from dead lawn because of boron in their tumblers? Boron is a vital trace nutrient, but can kill stuff when concentrated as I understand. I can't imagine that a tablespoon in a couple gallons of water (after you've washed the bowl a couple times) is going to be noticeable unless you keep dumping it in the same spot. I have tossed mine in different directions for years without a noticeable effect - although Oregon lawn is mostly dead in the summer! Borax is easy.

[jimg]

Aug 5, 2024 12:08:24 GMT -5 jimg said:

Very helpful. Thanks.

I found ingawh’s post just recently (after I posted my initial query). My Lot-o is running right now with 220 SiC, psyllium, and a little bit of Dawn. The slurry is very nice!

The motion of the rocks/ceramics isn’t as much as the videos I see online. My barrel isn’t as full as it maybe should be, and I think I may have added too much water with my squirt bottle. Or, I may need to adjust the position of the dowel. Lot-o variables.

As reported above, I felt the movement was poor in the 220 stage. 

For the 600 SiC stage, I was more careful about getting the water drained out at the start. And I added a few drops of Dawn and 1/4 tsp of psyllium. The movement was much, much better.  Over the 3 days of this stage, very little added water from my spray bottle was needed. 

Similarly, the polish stage went very well using a bit of Dawn plus psyllium. 

I think where I went wrong on the 220 stage was leaving too much water in the barrel at the start. It doesn’t look like I will need to tune the tumbler by moving the dowel. 

[jimg]

waterboysh - I tried to simulate tuning by sliding a second dowel in place closer to the red frame without removing the original. This seems to be the direction most people go when they tune the Lot-O.

In my case, adding the second dowel did not result in any change in the movement of rocks in the barrel.

I may have fixed my movement problem by being more careful to fully drain out the water before starting?

[jimg]

The saga continues (aka, reinventing the wheel, everything’s already been said but not everyone has said it, etc…)

The 1/4 tsp psyllium and a drop of Dawn seems to be a satisfactory substitute for borax in pre-polish and polish stages. After a few more stages completed, I am feeling good about that.

But burnishing using only Dawn and water hasn’t given me enough “slurry” to prevent the rocks from chattering and banging into one another. I think I’m going to stick with borax for burnishing, at least for now, and combine it with the rinse water from the previous stage for dilution before disposing in the grass.

[zebra61]

Aug 5, 2024 15:19:51 GMT -5 oregon said:

Has anyone actually suffered from dead lawn because of boron in their tumblers? Boron is a vital trace nutrient, but can kill stuff when concentrated as I understand. I can't imagine that a tablespoon in a couple gallons of water (after you've washed the bowl a couple times) is going to be noticeable unless you keep dumping it in the same spot. I have tossed mine in different directions for years without a noticeable effect - although Oregon lawn is mostly dead in the summer! Borax is easy.

I've be TRYING to kill off some grass/quackgrass/weeds in my gravel driveway all season and it almost appears to fertilize more than kill. Maybe I should add more? Or go back to using Roundup.... 

[zebra61]

Jul 27, 2024 20:02:51 GMT -5 jimg said:

The popular formulae for a Lot-O seem to all use a tbsp of borax in stages 3 and 4. 

I typically pour the waste water, mud, and grit from my rotaries down a grassy hill at the end of my driveway. I don’t want to do this with borax in the mix. 

Is there a suitable substitute for the borax?  Maybe dish soap or shaved Ivory soap?

I've only owned my Lot-O's for 10 months but I was given some valuable advice when I bought it. Fully drain the(almost on the verge of drying) load. Start the machine and add your grit and let if run for a minute or two. Then add one 'half pump' of Soft Soap brand liquid soap and let it go for 30 minutes before rechecking it. Usually I don't have to add any more moisture but each morning I check and to make sure things are still wet. If not then no more than two sprays of water and give the hopper a 1/4 turn clockwise. (Then do a little dance in front of it and go on with your day) 

A full pump of Soft Soap will get you too much suds. Too much moisture will get you too much suds. Any other cheapo Dollar store liquid hand soap will get you too much suds. Save yourself headaches and get the Soft Soap brand. 

I check my Lot-O's at 5am and 6pm daily and rarely have issues. I've tried Borax, Sugar, Dawn but I've skipped the Cat Litter and Psyllium thing. For my Mini Sonic I use a single drop of Dawn rather than Soft Soap. I put the drop on the tip of my finger and wipe it on a rock to add it, this is more controllable since it's very difficult to remove an extra drop of Dawn once it's in the hopper. (I've done that)

This isn't a 'How to'.... Just a 'What I do'... 
Mark

[oregon]

Aug 16, 2024 11:06:46 GMT -5 zebra61 said:

Jul 27, 2024 20:02:51 GMT -5 jimg said:

The popular formulae for a Lot-O seem to all use a tbsp of borax in stages 3 and 4. 

I typically pour the waste water, mud, and grit from my rotaries down a grassy hill at the end of my driveway. I don’t want to do this with borax in the mix. 

Is there a suitable substitute for the borax?  Maybe dish soap or shaved Ivory soap?

I've only owned my Lot-O's for 10 months but I was given some valuable advice when I bought it. Fully drain the(almost on the verge of drying) load. Start the machine and add your grit and let if run for a minute or two. Then add one 'half pump' of Soft Soap brand liquid soap and let it go for 30 minutes before rechecking it. Usually I don't have to add any more moisture but each morning I check and to make sure things are still wet. If not then no more than two sprays of water and give the hopper a 1/4 turn clockwise. (Then do a little dance in front of it and go on with your day) 

A full pump of Soft Soap will get you too much suds. Too much moisture will get you too much suds. Any other cheapo Dollar store liquid hand soap will get you too much suds. Save yourself headaches and get the Soft Soap brand. 

I check my Lot-O's at 5am and 6pm daily and rarely have issues. I've tried Borax, Sugar, Dawn but I've skipped the Cat Litter and Psyllium thing. For my Mini Sonic I use a single drop of Dawn rather than Soft Soap. I put the drop on the tip of my finger and wipe it on a rock to add it, this is more controllable since it's very difficult to remove an extra drop of Dawn once it's in the hopper. (I've done that)

This isn't a 'How to'.... Just a 'What I do'... 
Mark

good of you to experiment.  I couldn't pass up a $5 -5 gallon pail of Glycerin/Glycerol,  think that might not suds like soap, and basically half a sugar molecule, kinda sticky...  We'll see.    I keep trying the minisonics occasionally, but just not quite the Lot-o results.  Seems like in those barrels the contents rotate more en mass  'as a cylinder' while the lot-o might seem to force more mixing with the narrow bottom?  Dunno,  still trying to figure out the minisonic occasionally.

[stefan]

I've been dumping borax ladden slurry water on some weeds for about 20 years now. THey are the healthiest plants in my yard lol. Honestly the small amount of Borax really won't hurt things.

[zebra61]

Aug 16, 2024 15:52:35 GMT -5 stefan said:

I've been dumping borax ladden slurry water on some weeds for about 20 years now. THey are the healthiest plants in my yard lol. Honestly the small amount of Borax really won't hurt things.

 So it's not JUST ME!!! 

[zebra61]

Aug 16, 2024 11:54:54 GMT -5 oregon said:

Aug 16, 2024 11:06:46 GMT -5 zebra61 said:

good of you to experiment.  I couldn't pass up a $5 -5 gallon pail of Glycerin/Glycerol,  think that might not suds like soap, and basically half a sugar molecule, kinda sticky...  We'll see.    I keep trying the minisonics occasionally, but just not quite the Lot-o results.  Seems like in those barrels the contents rotate more en mass  'as a cylinder' while the lot-o might seem to force more mixing with the narrow bottom?  Dunno,  still trying to figure out the minisonic occasionally.

 You know, I've stared into the Mini hopper for a fair amount of time and thought the same exact thing about the contents. Especially flat rocks (skippers) always seem to come around and around on the outside of that glob. I kept it quiet because I figured folks would think I'm nuts!   Maybe I am nuts but I just found another candidate for the funny farm? Or it's true...