Soapstone?

[Roan]

Possible to tumble preform soapstone?

I was watching that "Carving Agates" video and wonder if I can tumble simple soapstone carvings the same way he was doing.

I have pipestone, which is probably too soft (yes, it's from the MN pit), and I have some catlinite as well. Steatite, too.

The pipestone is about a 3, catlinite 4-5, as it has some mineral deposits, and the steatite is Black Pearl and would be 5-6 MOHs.

Right now I carve the Native American way -- all done by hand and using hot beeswax for the final polish et al. Would make things go much faster if I could tumble instead of hand-sanding at 1600 microns. Easier on the hands, too.

Eileen

[Sabre52]

Roan: Soapstone only has a Mohs hardness of 1-1/2 and that includes the steatite you've mentioned which is actually only about Mohs 1 1/2 not in the 5-6 range. I would think because of this softness, all are poor candidates for the tumbler, though great for carving. You might have some luck with a vibe tumbler and a very short run in fine grind just for the preforming/shaping phase....Mel

[LCARS]

ABSOLUTELY DO NOT TRY TO TUMBLE POLISH SOAPSTONE!

If you preform anything from soapstone, no matter how carefully you try to tumble it, you will most likely wind up with a smaller, nearly formless dull blob and endless frustration & disappointment in the end. Even tumbling malachite at mohs 3'ish is very tricky and taxing due to it's softness as any shapes more complex than an oval will tend to wear excessively or unevenly before polishing (IF it polishes). If you're trying to save time on the final stages without compromising the quality of your hand carving, tumbling is not the way to do it.

The agate carving video is also somewhat deceiving in that it shows a production line sort of set-up where carvings are cheaply pumped out on-mass.

I still have my doubts about whether that's even actually agate because of the way those little trim blades are eating it up like butter. Agate is a very hard material which makes it harder to cut but easier to polish. The vibe tumbling in the carving video was to remove saw marks and smooth out the shapes a bit, then prepare the surface for a chemical polishing bath.

Have you considered using a foredom (Dremel) type tool with the apropriate sanding and polishing accessories to help speed up the process? At least that way you are still directly able to influence the outcome all the way to the final polish and probably save yourself some pain & suffering.

[Roan]

Feb 17, 2008 12:47:53 GMT -5 Sabre52 said:

Roan: Soapstone only has a Mohs hardness of 1-1/2 and that includes the steatite you've mentioned which is actually only about Mohs 1 1/2 not in the 5-6 range. I would think because of this softness, all are poor candidates for the tumbler, though great for carving. You might have some luck with a vibe tumbler and a very short run in fine grind just for the preforming/shaping phase....Mel

Mel,

Not to argue with you, but this steatite is definitely not a 1 on the MOHs scale. It's called "Black Pearl" and is a variation found only in Virginia that can be carved with a hammer and chisel and works much like marble. Here:

www.blackpearlsoapstone.com/blackpearl'sofwisdom.html

According to our bandsaw, it's a 4-5 with some 7 spots; enough to break the band if you are not careful.

Pipestone, or catlinite, from the mine in MN is very red and very soft: a 1 on the MOH scale. Minnesota is the only place that has this particular stone. Utah, and other state pipestones, are harder and a 2 on MOHs.

Catlinite from Kenora, Ontario, is black and works a lot like the steatite. It's also harder than your average "talc" -- comparing it with the Utah, I'd say it runs 2-3 in hardness.

None of the above stones have the "greasy" feeling that "regular" soapstone and talc do.

Eileen

[Roan]

Feb 17, 2008 14:00:58 GMT -5 LCARS said:

ABSOLUTELY DO NOT TRY TO TUMBLE POLISH SOAPSTONE!

But, but . . . awwww, man!

I hear yah, but I DO want to try it -- just to see what happens to the different types of stones I have.

What I was thinking was throwing some pieces I have laying around into the tumbler just to see exactly what results. I have lots of small stuff -- about 1 x 2 or so -- left from some carvings I did.

Hrm, some of the Utah and Kenora cat and the Black Pearl. Those are the harder ones.

So, if I were gonna try it -- and I *have* to!!! I do!! Just to see! -- would I just tumble it one day with AO or something? 500 grit? Suggestions? Just for fun, mind you! I don't care if it works or not. I love to try new things like this.

The agate carving video is also somewhat deceiving in that it shows a production line sort of set-up where carvings are cheaply pumped out on-mass.

I still have my doubts about whether that's even actually agate because of the way those little trim blades are eating it up like butter. Agate is a very hard material which makes it harder to cut but easier to polish.

I know absolutely nothing about agates et al, but even I wondered the same thing. The stuff looked like some type of jade to me. Dunno.

The vibe tumbling in the carving video was to remove saw marks and smooth out the shapes a bit, then prepare the surface for a chemical polishing bath.

Nod, and vib is easier on rocks, no?

Have you considered using a foredom (Dremel) type tool with the apropriate sanding and polishing accessories to help speed up the process? At least that way you are still directly able to influence the outcome all the way to the final polish and probably save yourself some pain & suffering.

I didn't like the Foredom I looked at and bought a Turbo Carver instead. Was hoping not to have to get that out 'cause I'm lean on room and it's rather noisy. My studio, for the nonce, used to be our family room and now it's full of fish tanks and artwork.

I'll break out the Turbo and see what I can come up with.

Eileen

[Michael John]

I don't know what a Turbo Carver is, but a Foredom would definately be the tool of choice for a lot of stone carving, especially harder materials. Not having to bear the weight of a motor allows you to be more precise, with far fewer mistakes.

If the little bit of noise that a Foredom's motor makes is more than you'd like to tolerate, you could even use sound-dampening materials to quiet it down considerably.

[Roan]

Feb 17, 2008 18:34:55 GMT -5 Michael John said:

I don't know what a Turbo Carver is, but a Foredom would definately be the tool of choice for a lot of stone carving, especially harder materials. Not having to bear the weight of a motor allows you to be more precise, with far fewer mistakes.

If the little bit of noise that a Foredom's motor makes is more than you'd like to tolerate, you could even use sound-dampening materials to quiet it down considerably.

The Turbo Carver is pretty much a smaller version of the Foredom, but has a lower torque. Since I won't be carving harder stones (for a while at least), the Turbo should work fine. I mainly used it for gourd carving, but the model I bought has water cooling and works great on softer stones. After using one of these, I just can't go back to a Dremel. Too darn heavy and cumbersome.

Eileen

[johnjsgems]

You may be able to tumble polish in a Mini-Sonic with Vibradry. I'd call Don at Diamond Pacific for a recommendation on which compounds to use. The Mini-Sonic will pretty much maintain whatever shape you put in. The Vibradry can be used on amber and pearls (though not with the steel shot included). I've only used the 25000 and 50000 for final polish and tarnish removal.

[Roan]

Feb 17, 2008 23:21:18 GMT -5 johnjsgems said:

You may be able to tumble polish in a Mini-Sonic with Vibradry. I'd call Don at Diamond Pacific for a recommendation on which compounds to use. The Mini-Sonic will pretty much maintain whatever shape you put in. The Vibradry can be used on amber and pearls (though not with the steel shot included). I've only used the 25000 and 50000 for final polish and tarnish removal.

Thanks! I was thinking of picking up a vibratory as a second tumbler. I'll check this out.

Eileen

[Sabre52]

Roan: *S* Not to go all scientist on you or anything, but by definition, soapstone , steatite etc are talc which by mineral book definition is Mohs 1- 1 1/2. If it's a 5-6 it ain't soapstone or steatite. You may call it that but it's something else. It may have originally started out as soapstone but become silicified or something but at that hardness, it's no longer soapstone ....mel

[rollingstone]

Roan, if you are dealing with true soapstone, at a Mohs hardness of less than 2, then it probably won't polish in a tumbler. But I understand your desire to give it a try, and if you are just testing it on some spare pieces, then you've got nothing to lose.

If I understand you correctly, you ultimately want to try this with some pieces you've carved. In that case, I suggest just going with a final polish stage, adding an equal or even greater amount of plastic pellets to rocks to give lots of cushioning, and then let things roll for two weeks or so to see how they do. That's assuming you are using a rotary tumbler, I've never used a vibe so cannot comment there except to say that they are much faster.

If you were trying to shape and polish some rougher material, I would start with 500 grit, let that tumble for a week or so, then wash two or more times to get rid of any residual grit. Then go to the polish stage.

If the material you have is really up to Mohs 5 or 6, then it isn't soapstone at all, so just tumble it with a standard rock tumbling recipe, perhaps adding some extra plastic pellets to cushion things a bit better.
-Don

[dshalldms]

Hello Eileen,

Try any good Metal Polishing Soap on a cotton mop.

Using this method puts a very high polish on Cotham Marble.

Derek

[Roan]

Feb 18, 2008 2:44:59 GMT -5 Sabre52 said:

Roan: *S* Not to go all scientist on you or anything, but by definition, soapstone , steatite etc are talc which by mineral book definition is Mohs 1- 1 1/2. If it's a 5-6 it ain't soapstone or steatite. You may call it that but it's something else. It may have originally started out as soapstone but become silicified or something but at that hardness, it's no longer soapstone ....mel

Okay, I stand corrected

I called the people who sell Black Pearl and asked them about it. Apparently a couple of years ago when I bought my skid of stone, the deposit they were working had a *lot* of what they call "nail heads" dispersed throughout the rock. The nail heads are pyrites and they don't play nice with bandsaws. So, the rock seemed to be hard, but it was the nail heads, and scattered bits and pieces of pyrite, that I kept hitting when I was working it.

He said that the deposit they are working now is like "buttah" and is 1 on MOHs.

You're right, I'm wrong and I am a dork for arguing ;D

Eileen

[Roan]

Feb 18, 2008 3:54:07 GMT -5 rollingstone said:

Roan, if you are dealing with true soapstone, at a Mohs hardness of less than 2, then it probably won't polish in a tumbler. But I understand your desire to give it a try, and if you are just testing it on some spare pieces, then you've got nothing to lose.

Exactly! I have tons of this stuff floating around, too.

If I understand you correctly, you ultimately want to try this with some pieces you've carved. In that case, I suggest just going with a final polish stage, adding an equal or even greater amount of plastic pellets to rocks to give lots of cushioning, and then let things roll for two weeks or so to see how they do. That's assuming you are using a rotary tumbler, I've never used a vibe so cannot comment there except to say that they are much faster.

That's about what I was thinking. Some of the pieces I work on are very small and it's really hard on my hands when I'm on the final polish stage.

If you were trying to shape and polish some rougher material, I would start with 500 grit, let that tumble for a week or so, then wash two or more times to get rid of any residual grit. Then go to the polish stage.

I was thinking just a day or two in the tumbler. Hrm it would be better just to keep checking it every day instead of planning on a week, no?

If the material you have is really up to Mohs 5 or 6, then it isn't soapstone at all, so just tumble it with a standard rock tumbling recipe, perhaps adding some extra plastic pellets to cushion things a bit better.

Nod, it's not and I'm an idiot for arguing about it ;D

Eileen

[Roan]

Feb 18, 2008 9:26:56 GMT -5 dshalldms said:

Hello Eileen,

Try any good Metal Polishing Soap on a cotton mop.

Using this method puts a very high polish on Cotham Marble.

Derek

I can try that --

Is that rubbing compound -- like what they use on cars?

Anyone in the States know?

Eileen

[Sabre52]

Roan *S* Don't worry about it we all learn here by sharing informaton. And you're right too, boy sometimes those metallic inclusions can really play hob with your saws. My poppy jasper I hunt often has gold bearing metallic sulfides like pyrite and chalcopyrite mixes and they can make your saw blade bog down or change speed and direction. Kind a big ole pain in the patoot!....mel

[rollingstone]

Feb 18, 2008 13:13:16 GMT -5 Roan said:

I was thinking just a day or two in the tumbler. Hrm it would be better just to keep checking it every day instead of planning on a week, no?

Eileen

If you want to check it every day, yes that would be by far the best option. I'm just lazy ;D. If you add lots of pellets, that will really slow down the action in the barrel so even soft material might not wear too quickly. That was my experience with some Mohs 3 travertine (which I started in 120/220), but maybe Mohs 1 is in an entirely different league.

At any rate, it's fairly easy to check on things in the 500 grit stage, but I find the polish stage really mucky to open up and check things, so I do that as little as possible.

If you try it without any plastic pellets at all, I would check the 500 grit stage after even a few hours to see what's happening, as going a full day might well lead to a barrel of slurry and nothing else.
-Don

[dshalldms]

Hello Eileen,

Polishing soap is a compound used by silversmiths when buffing
silver on a cotton mop.

This is the sort of material that I have used it on...



Hope this helps,

Derek

[Roan]

Feb 17, 2008 18:25:24 GMT -5 Roan said:

I know absolutely nothing about agates et al, but even I wondered the same thing. The stuff looked like some type of jade to me. Dunno.

Just to clarify -- when I said that the rock they were using in that "Cutting Agates" video looked like jade, I meant the stuff they have been calling "New Jade", which is supposed to be light green serpentine.

Dat's what I meant.

Eileen

[Roan]

Feb 18, 2008 13:16:29 GMT -5 Sabre52 said:

Roan *S* Don't worry about it we all learn here by sharing informaton. And you're right too, boy sometimes those metallic inclusions can really play hob with your saws. My poppy jasper I hunt often has gold bearing metallic sulfides like pyrite and chalcopyrite mixes and they can make your saw blade bog down or change speed and direction. Kind a big ole pain in the patoot!....mel

Nod

My husband broke two bandsaw blades on the Kenora and the Black Pearl and was not a happy camper. This, of course, was a few years ago when we were both carving soapstone. Didn't realize you could buy diamond bandsaw blades.

Eileen