ksk
having dreams about rocks
Member since October 2008
Posts: 69
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Post by ksk on Dec 3, 2008 14:16:49 GMT -5
I've been reading through the old posts on the subject and it seems water w\ additives will work fine for 10" saws and smaller. Below is a list of products mentioned in the posts as well as some I've found while searching the web. The list includes the product, source, price\gal, and mix ratio. I believe this info is current and correct. If you find a source for less $, let me know and I will edit the list. Also if you know of other products I will add to the list.
I'm looking for first hand reviews of these products. Please include (if possible) saw type, blade type, performance, rust issues, and clean-up.
Thanks in advance.
Roc Cut, Diamond Pacific, $44.50, 30:1
Water Aid, Diamond Pacific, $27.75, pint water/6 drops
Lube Cool 4800, Johnson Brothers, $50.00, 10:1
Koolerant No. 1, Covington, $22.00, 9:1
Tool Cool, Lapcraft, $30.00, 1gal water/8oz
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darrad
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since September 2006
Posts: 1,636
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Post by darrad on Dec 3, 2008 22:06:26 GMT -5
Here is something I have been wondering about on this topic. What about adding Borax or Dawn to the water? I would think one would want to drain and dry after after each use. Water base will rust no matter what the question is how long. I hope this is not considered a hijack.
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Post by johnjsgems on Dec 3, 2008 22:12:09 GMT -5
Roc Cut and Lube Cool are the same product. Diamond Pacific buys it from Johnson Brothers and relabels. They recommend 20:1 for saws. It helps with rust but doesn't prevent. I wouldn't leave it in the saw. The Water Aid and Tool Cool are generally not used in saws but help with diamond wheels. I suppose if you wanted a plain water lubricant they would be beneficial. I use the Covington product in a drop saw I use for materials sensitive to oil. It works ok but saw blade is above the water so no rust issue. I have one of the old style 301 blades in that saw. I also have a plastic-bodied tile saw I use with plain water and a 4" 303C blade. I have to dump the water after use to avoid rusting the bottom of blade.
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Post by catmandewe on Dec 5, 2008 10:19:26 GMT -5
We do alot of tile work, and when we set up the 10" tile saw we put a squirt of Dawn dishwashing detergent in the water, it makes the saw cut through tile quite a bit faster. I also have a small 7" tile saw that has become a rock trim saw, and I do the same thing with it, even though I rarely use it anymore. (Nothing makes it cut through rock any faster, it is slow slow slow). All my other saws I use mineral oil, so I can't help you there. I know that didn't answer any of your questions, but we have been using Dawn with the tile saws for years.
Tony
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Post by johnjsgems on Dec 6, 2008 10:18:31 GMT -5
I wouldn't be surprised if Water Aid was some kind of non-sudsing detergent. Here is some non-related trivia. I was told once by a detergent/boiler chemical manufacturer that the sudsing additives are only added to household marketed detergents because housewives won't buy detergents unless they make bubbles. According to him the bubbles do nothing and are not added to their commercial products.
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docharber
has rocks in the head
Member since October 2008
Posts: 693
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Post by docharber on Dec 14, 2008 15:36:48 GMT -5
Anothwer product, and I suspect a relabelled one, is Graves diacut. I read the label and it contains borat complex"- read borax, triethanolamine, Triazine, water, and colorant. The triethanolamine is an amino-alcohol compound and these are used commonly as emulsifiers and cleansing agents. Related compounds include the quaternary ammonium compounds used in disinfectants and antiseptics (benzalkonium chloride) and household cleaners likee Fantastic. The triazine is there for no particular purpose I can figure out, but would act as a cosolvent. Th borax is a cleaner like the triethanolamine. When you see nonionic surfactant on a labell, these sorts of compounds are what is meant. Soap and most common detergents work differently and are ionic compounds, dissociating in water to form a (usually) sodium or potassium ion and a negatively charged anion with a very polar (charged) end attached to a nonpolar hydrocarbon tail. these charged ions form "micelles: with the polar or charged ends of the anions on the exterior interacting with the water and the nonpolar ends oriented toward the center of the micelle where they form an environment where non-water-soluble materials like oils or greases will be soluble and kept in suspension. WHen the micelles are "full" The soap or detergent can't handle any more grease and the micelle can be disrupted and its charge dissipated. The charged groups interact with water to lower surface tension dramatically by ionic action, disrupting the ordered arrangement of the water molecules on the surface of the water and allowing bubbles to form. Nnionic compounds have a much weaker action on the electrostatic attraction between water molecules so don't foam as much. Water softening agents act to preserve the surface tension action of soaps and ionic detergents by binding "hard" ions like calcium and magnesium,which can combine with the soap or detergent ions and making poorly soluble (largely unionized) compounds that don't form atable micelles. Water softening agents replace the "hard" ions with sodium or potassium, which remain ionized in woter and thus keep the soap or detergent in solution, too.
Now, as for using regular detergent in the water sump, I see no reason it wouldn't work just dandy and it would sure cost a lot less that these other grossly overpriced products. I think the sodium or postaaium in the regular detergents or soaps might cause more rust problems by acting like an electrolyte. that's why the nonionic ompounds might be better if there is a dorrosion concern.
I think I'll go get a life now.
Mark H.
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ksk
having dreams about rocks
Member since October 2008
Posts: 69
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Post by ksk on Dec 27, 2008 14:06:49 GMT -5
Bump.
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Post by Michael John on Dec 27, 2008 15:13:38 GMT -5
The problem that I have with additives for the WF is that there's quite a bit of overspray ... whatever's in the water is also all over you. I tried dish soap ... NEVER again!
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darrad
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since September 2006
Posts: 1,636
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Post by darrad on Dec 27, 2008 22:43:32 GMT -5
Thanks Doc. It was a bit over my head but not too much. Definitly answered my guestion.
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