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Post by Woodyrock on Jan 28, 2010 2:18:20 GMT -5
Lowell: I can not do it, but some of the really experienced rockhounds in Oregon can identify a thunder eggs origin from the outer shell. An ID from the core is a wee bit more difficult, but seeing both can be very accurate .
Mel...I would litterally give my eye teeth (Istill have my teeth) to see your binders. As the other are saying, when you are stumped, it goes in the unknown file. Woody
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Jan 28, 2010 10:52:22 GMT -5
Lowell: Boy this sounds like a very exciting project! I'm sure you would make a swell editor I already have a ton of images in photobucket and hundreds if not thousands of more specimens I can photograph. Most are already ID'd with locations etc. I'd expect good type slab or face cut specimen pics would be the best to post and show particular types. The main difficulty I encountered when setting up my own notebooks was how to arrange all the data so it can easily be searched and I'll admit, I haven't figured that one out yet. If you look at the Agate Lexicon, you can get an idea of just how complex this situation is. It lists by location, digging site, common name, trade names etc with lots of overlap. Problem is mainly to do with trade names and common names. Obviously, for U.S. agate and jasper, you'd go state first but then what? If you go by type: Poppy Jasper, Flowering Jasper, orbicular jasper etc, it gets confusing because there are so many locations. So perhaps the best way is by location in alphabetical order, ie California, Cady Mountains or California, Parkfield. Then you can show the multitude of agate and jasper types from the Cadys or from around Parkfield. Ideally though, you'd want a common name search because someone might buy something with a name ie. Stone Canyon Jasper and just want to know the location without going through the whole state. For total unknowns, you'd need a type search. ie. You know its a fortification agate or a poppy jasper but have no clue where it's from . If you could search banded or fortification agate or poppy jasper and come up with a list of sites, that would be cool and shorten a search....Mel
PS: This particular RTH section was originally supposed to be the database you are wanting to set up. If you go back to the oldest posts, you'll see lots of type specimens we all posted. It just kind of got sidetracked and turned into a place where unknowns are posted for ID and then went all over the place. maybe we can convince Mark or John to set up a new database section with the caveat, no comments or questions. Rock identification/library use only.
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Post by Hard Rock Cafe on Jan 28, 2010 13:54:45 GMT -5
Yep, I almost put in the caveat that the book is limited. It hits the high points (more popular materials), and it does that well, but there are lots of rocks not covered.
I applaud the efforts and ideas you are all putting forth. I think it is ultimately too big a project for one person. Even if you take a single category of rock, there can be a lot of location specific sub-types.
For example, I don't know a lot about Fairburns, but from what I can gather they vary based on location. Indian reservation Fairburns are different from Custer Fairburns, etc., but they all have some characteristics in common.
I'd like to see a true identification thread, but agree that it would need to be organized so that finding things is easier. While starting with a location works great if you know the location to start with, it doesn't help at all if you don't know the location. Thinking out loud, it would help to have a database where you could choose exterior characteristics, color characteristics, patterns, etc.
Just my 2 cents.
Chuck
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Jan 28, 2010 14:31:59 GMT -5
Chuck: Boy I totally agree with where you're coming from. If you know a location or some information, it's pretty easy to make the ID but when you start with a total unknown, it becomes really really tough unless you have a good memory for specimen characteristics. Short of some kind of key like they use for plant identification, it may become necessary to sort listings based on the most remedial of characteristics. Unlike plants, agate and jasper tend to vary in color, pattern, inclusions etc. Some forms, such as Lakers or Dryheads can be pretty distinctive but others which would probably be the majority, can be much tougher and are usually characterized by a set of variables that merely fall within a broad classification ie: Thundereggs. I think that for it to be real useful, we may have to restrict photographs to those which are most indicative of the general characteristics for a particular agate or jasper species. Overall, this may become like my notebooks, a massive work in a constant state of revision *L*....Mel
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elementary
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Post by elementary on Jan 28, 2010 23:00:52 GMT -5
Mel, I have a lot of optimism for this! I can't wait to begin testing ideas to see what is the most user friendly.
Thoughts- I believe we have to go into this realizing that this will be a 'living' document - constantly being updated and revised. With this in mind, the size of the project dictates that we take slow steps and look to short term goals leading up to the final goal. In my mind, we work on a state, or material from a state (such as wood from California), and do the best we can gathering material for that topic. Then, once that comes in, we put out another request while the previously acquired images are sorted, valued, and decided upon. (I do believe we will need multiple specimens for each locality just because of the variety (as Mel mentions regarding the Cady Mtns)).
Files also are better than a thread because it means you are not restricted to being on-line to refer to it, it's updated, filtered by several reviewers, and posted as a PDF file. It is also can be updated and reposted so changes are monitored.
As for format, I do like the idea of location driving the search and then having a general excel database or index that would contain all the Retail Names and provide page numbers and states where the material originated. If desired, it could include a short checklist of characteristics.
I agree that this would be a huge project - so my thought is that we choose a state like Utah - which has a wide variety of material, but wouldn't bury us like California or Texas - and do a sample run on how the material would look and test what works and what doesn't. Once we like how Utah works, then we expand slowly, state by state. That way we control the information and the information doesn't control us. We can test a few different formats and get feedback. We can see how it appears on a thread, and also, I can take any images and produce a sample of how the file contents would look like.
Oh, not that I want this, but do we want criteria on the photos - such as having something to show scale such as a coin or ruler? I feel that would be too restrictive to all the existing photos people already have, but I wanted to ask.
So, let's start simple and slow, so mistakes won't be a bear to fix.
Thanks, Lowell
Woody, It's amazing what experience will teach you. I have some carnelian filled t-eggs from oregon, but I have little clue as to their origin as I have not come across exact matches to their details. I'm pretty good at the Hauser Bed location as I've been there a bunch, and I'm getting better at pegging general localities, but boy, Oregon is confusing...especially with the appearance of all these little mine specimens.
Chuck, An index is mandatory for this. I've done them for other projects I've been apart of, which is why it doesn't scare me to compile the files. It's the identification i'd like to see a few people involved with. (Thanks for the :2cents: )
Lowell
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Jan 29, 2010 9:34:35 GMT -5
Sounds good Lowell. I agree starting with a state with fewer recorded types of agate and jasper would be best. I must admit that I'm still confused about how you're gonna get the pictures sorted and into your files etc. The pics have to originate from individually owned files and while they might be posted to a location, I'm not sure how you can move them around and sort them when they're only linked pics because only the individual can mess with something like a photobucket file as these are just linked to the database site from the other location. But heck what do I know. This is all magic to me *L*. Just tell me what you want and when....Mel
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NorthShore-Rocks
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Post by NorthShore-Rocks on Jan 29, 2010 10:09:10 GMT -5
If you guys end up using PDF's, you could put every kind of search data in the document you think of and it would then be searchable by Adobe Acrobat. That would also bridge the PC/Mac issue too. That would also eliminate the linking to Photobucket for the photos. Once the photo is in the PDF file, it's embedded in the file and travels with the document. You still would need a place to store the files, but searchability would be as elaborate as you care to make it. File sizes could also be controlled and tailored to what you think is appropriate and most folks already have the program on their computer.
When I was archiving for Service Printers, we would construct an archive document when the job was delivered and ready to go offline. In that document, we would include a view by list (including all working files, text, graphics etc) and a thumbnail view for a quick peek at graphics and photos. Then we would add a quick text file with job no., customer name, date archived or any other text that could help a quick search for the piece. You could easily tailor that to rocks ie. Region, Site specific, Metamorphic, color, anything at all!
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elementary
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Post by elementary on Jan 30, 2010 11:00:13 GMT -5
NorthShoreRocks, Thank you very much for the input! Yes, PDF is my plan. It's the form I use to distribute the newsletters for my club. And I am a Mac user. As for the file distribution, I've been researching (don't know if you saw the earlier post or not) a place where the files can be stored and then linked into RTH on a post. Click on the link - get the file dropped right into your own computer. Each time I update the file, I set up a new link to it on RTH and you can update your records. (I've never done that before, but I've never posted pictures anywhere before joining this site, so I'm learning.) It sounds like you've had more experience putting together catalogs before, so if I need to, may I drop a line your way for advice? Mel, I can drag/copy/drop most any picture I come across on this site or others. It gives me a jpg but the imagelink is removed and I then have access to it. (Which reminds me - yes, I could borrow photos from this site and then reload them into photobucket. It would be done through this conversion. Like how people copied their fun Christmas images - such as the few I saw you have - and then posted those on Photobucket.) See: HEY LOOK AT THIS NEW PIECE OF WOOD MEL FOUND! (This image now rests in my photobucket as a sample - boy, wish I could really point/click and copy for myself some of your real material - and some of SteveHolmes little Mexican nodules, and Rockmanken's knives and... ah to dream) And regarding photos - I am hoping to be organized enough to keep track of where/who the photos came from so credit can be provided. I don't even need them posted here to do it. If people have photobucket sites, all they need to do is label the specimens there, let me know they are ready, and then I can copy them out. Saves the time and formality of posting pictures to RTH - though we would still want you or others to review the material to make your own comments and for accuracy. (I will say, for my own self collected material and many of the most famous localities, I got a good eye, but I will back off from claiming I have deep identification abilities, especially for the level of work this project is going to require.) Side note: For additional material, I want to email certain people out there who don't post here to see if I can get sample photos of material I haven't seen here - such as that 'new' black and white bear canyon agate from montana. Local collecting clubs and personal sites would aid us for regional material, I am thinking. Ah, I'm excited at this! Let me know if we want to get the ball rolling! Do you feel comfortable enough to begin this long term project? - Oh and let's just start with Utah to honor Steve's initial posting that led to this discussion. Thanks Lowell
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SteveHolmes
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Post by SteveHolmes on Jan 30, 2010 11:36:46 GMT -5
This is very exciting! I appreciate all the effort and thought You are all putting into this. I am no computer guru...but I have learned lots since I ever first started posting. Any help that I can be....please holler! So....what Utah stuff you looking for??? I have some killer wood collected many years ago, great Dugways which are very easily identifiable, chunk of coprolite I just sliced inot, Dino Bone, or we looking for the more uncommon stuff like the nodule that got this thread started. Thanks Lowell, Mel, Steve(NSR), Chuck, Woody, and I'm sure others who will help woth this massive undertaking. An ongoing project which is just too cool!!!! Steve
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elementary
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Post by elementary on Jan 30, 2010 16:23:22 GMT -5
Steve,
It's my understanding that what is needed is a identification library, a place where images of both common and not so common material can be researched - so any item where the basic location is known would be excellent for it. (Your nodule and my other San Rafael type material are the perfect example of why such a publication of images is needed - since nothing seems to exist that lists them. In fact, this collection would be worthless for serious collectors if it didn't include lesser known locations.)
As a side note, just thinking, I also don't see it as a field collecting tool - so exact coordinates and road directions would be beyond its scope. (I think what is needed is a town or geological landmark to provide a general area.)
I have a couple samples of copralites. Are there wide variations in how they look between locations? I've only begun looking into them. (Thought again - it might be worthwhile somewhere along the line to show a variety of copralites together regardless of location to help id specimens...maybe a typing/definition glossary ...but that'll be later.
Can't wait to see what you have up your sleeve!
Lowell
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Jan 30, 2010 17:50:37 GMT -5
Lowell, Yep there's a wide variation in coprolites and probably a lot of them are not coprolites at all. Many appear to be septarian in nature, or pseudomorphs after things like barite nodules. Lots of them look like poop and come from a dino area so folks call them coprolite. The one thing they should have in common is they should come from known dino bone locations so most are from Colorado, Utah and Wyoming. I'm working on labeling my photobucket album now About 46 pages so it'll take awhile...Mel
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NorthShore-Rocks
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Post by NorthShore-Rocks on Jan 30, 2010 20:41:46 GMT -5
Lowell,
give me a shout anytime you have a question! I can't guarantee I'll have a useful answer, but I will give it my best shot. My expertise is in image and graphics production and the archiving, daily back-up and recall of all the appropriate data over a couple of decades. I was heavily involved with the storage and archive of that data for almost 20 years as the industry went through massive change and customers became interested in creating and recalling their previous graphics. So, anything I could contribute as a tangent to this site, I would just be tickled to help. It sounds like you have a solid game plan and most importantly, willing to take the task on. Let me know anytime you have a question, I'll give it my best shot as I probably have a better handle on that then the rocks I'm posting!
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elementary
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Post by elementary on Jan 30, 2010 21:52:51 GMT -5
Steve, I've been trying to come across anything else on line about the San Rafael Swell and rock hunting - especially in light of your posting. Found not a hint of anything until this posting: www.rockhounds.com/rocknet/archive/messages/5696.shtml"The other (geode) found approximately 400 miles away, near the san rafael swell.and the outside matrix is a really hard red bumpy agate like texture." Sound vaguely familiar? There is no picture so can't say for certain yours is from his spot - but I thought this would interest you a bit. Lowell
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Thunder69
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Post by Thunder69 on Jan 30, 2010 22:17:58 GMT -5
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Sabre52
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Post by Sabre52 on Jan 30, 2010 23:00:45 GMT -5
Lowell, Only info I have on the San Rafael Swell area is in Bessie Simpsons book Utah Gem Trails 1975 which I used for my last trip out that way and as all kinds of new roads had been built, I found the maps pretty dang bad and didn't spend a lot of time in Utah...Mel
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