mikeinsjc
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2010
Posts: 329
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Post by mikeinsjc on Jan 29, 2012 18:59:12 GMT -5
Each summer, I sell rocks in a small berg in Montana. People keep asking me if I have any of this or that, some of which I know are illegal to sell. I need to come up with a list of stuff that is prohibited to sell. Here are some of the things I know about (I think), but I would appreciate your help in expanding this list, as well as any specific CFR's I can look up/print out. So...
1) Any Indian artifacts, including arrowheads 2) Any petrified wood removed from public lands 3) Endangered species parts ("Got any wolf teeth?")- unless imported from Canada with certificates 4) Vertebrate fossils removed from public lands???
PLease correct me and add anything else you can think of. Thanks.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2012 23:26:15 GMT -5
My bones Jim
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Post by jakesrocks on Jan 29, 2012 23:44:38 GMT -5
Any human bones, any raptor parts (feathers, claws, etc.). Anything plant or rock collected in National Parks.
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Fossilman
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2009
Posts: 20,685
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Post by Fossilman on Jan 30, 2012 11:30:26 GMT -5
Why can't you sell petwood???
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,466
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Post by Sabre52 on Jan 30, 2012 11:52:21 GMT -5
Fossil, Actually I think there is some rule about no commercial sales of any rocks collected on government land. It's actually only allowable under BLM/Forest service rules to collect "samples" "small amounts" of rocks for the collectors own collection. Rocks for resale must be from sites under proper posted claims. depends on which range you talk to but there are actually bag limits which were described to me as one day pack worth of material per day. And then of course there are separate limits on Pet wood which is again not supposed to be for sale. if you check our e-bay, you'll see very few folks actually abide by the rules.....Mel
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Post by drocknut on Jan 30, 2012 12:38:46 GMT -5
What Mel said. Very few people actually abide by the rules which makes all of us look bad and causes areas to be closed off to collectors like me who are just in it for the fun of finding cool rocks. Selling rocks seems to be a sticky business but I like the fact you are making a list and following the rules. I know fossils are definitely illegal to sell in Montana as well as other places and collecting isn't allowed in National Parks at all.
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Fossilman
Cave Dweller
Member since January 2009
Posts: 20,685
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Post by Fossilman on Jan 30, 2012 15:04:37 GMT -5
Wow!!! I think I'll just stay a collector and just horse trade!
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dbrealityrocks
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since February 2010
Posts: 1,084
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Post by dbrealityrocks on Jan 30, 2012 17:40:39 GMT -5
Here in SE MT there is lots of pet wood that can be collected on privately owned land that can be sold. Also I have been invited to dig some fossils including a turtle that sounds like you'd need a crane to lift on a ranch near here. Don't think I'll do it, I like fossils but I'm more into polishing and making jewelry and all the fossils I've seen around here are sandstone and most need to be stabilized.
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grayfingers
Cave Dweller
Member since November 2007
Posts: 4,575
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Post by grayfingers on Jan 31, 2012 7:54:16 GMT -5
In the United States it is legal to dig for fossils on private land with the landowner's permission, and any fossil found on private land belongs to the landowner.
The Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act is a law that establishes the ownership of cultural items excavated or discovered on federal or tribal land after November 16, 1990. However, the provisions of the legislation do not apply to private lands. Same goes for wood.
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Post by kk on Jan 31, 2012 8:07:06 GMT -5
Any human bones, any raptor parts (feathers, claws, etc.). Anything plant or rock collected in National Parks. Are you sure about that? Someone on "The Carving Path" recently asked about human femur carving. Ok, he was having replacement and wanted to carve it. Didn't say if he planed to sell. LOL
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Post by jakesrocks on Jan 31, 2012 8:57:49 GMT -5
I would imagine that since the femur belonged to him to begin with, he'd be free to do with it as he pleased. That would probably include selling it. But before it left the hospital, it would be considered bio waste, and would have to be properly sanitized.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2012 21:38:33 GMT -5
BLM has a web site that gives all the rules. I was doing some research there a while back and the only thing that I remember is that you can collect 250 pounds of pet wood per year for your own use but you have to have a permit to sell it. All the pet wood I have come from private land no matter where it came from. lol It did sound like there is a permit available but I did not see a price or what you have to do to get one. Jim
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Sabre52
Cave Dweller
Me and my gal, Rosie
Member since August 2005
Posts: 20,466
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Post by Sabre52 on Jan 31, 2012 23:03:32 GMT -5
*L* Jim, I heard of a friend of a friend back in California who collected Indian artifacts. All his collection was "collected on private property with the owners permission" *W*. Problem is, one day a ranger caught him wandering onto public lands where he was observed collecting on a Pitt River Indian site. Funny thing is, with these collecting laws, if you don't have a bill of sale from the private landowner showing you collected stuff legally on their land, once you're busted for a violation, it all becomes collected on public land in the eyes of the law. Besides a fine, my friend said was in the five figure range, this guy lost his entire artifact collection worth upwards of a 100K. Problem is, us rock hounds like the artifact hunters, never get that bill of sale when we collect private property. So, if we ever, in our wanderings , happen to cross that line regarding that petrified wood limit, commercial rock collecting on BLM land etc. and get caught ( slim chance but it does happen) not only can stiff fines happen but one's entire collection can be confiscated too. Admittedly, since it seems certain folks are raping the Cady Mountains in California and selling it on e-bay with impunity, law enforcement in this area seems severely lacking, but it does bear keeping in mind because more and more rangers seem to be really hard nosed regarding collecting rules. I've heard of instances lately from California, involving collecting at Lavic Siding where much of the small flakes of gem quality jasper were declared to be waste flakes from Amerind knapping and therefore illegal to collect, and several instances involving accidental trespass across newly extended park boundaries out in the palm collecting areas around Red Rock Canyon Park and around the Early Man site at Yermo.....Mel
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2012 12:36:25 GMT -5
Yea, if they get you you are in deep doodoo. I do not worry about a little wood but when I had an opportunity to collect some bone with another guy who needed help I decided it was not worth it. His wife was ill and he was about to loose his house and land because of the hospital bills. I really wanted to help him out but I could not justify going to prison over it. He said that it was a dino coming out of soft ground on a hill side. I just wanted to go see it but he would not tell me where it was thinking that I would steal it from him.
My son has some artifacts that prove a migration pattern but he can not prove that it came from private land so he can not take it anywhere and show it. It is stupid that the authorities do not work with the collectors and hunters so the knowledge is available to everyone. Leaving it lay until it turns to dust and no one gets to see it is totally wrong. The chance of even one other person wandering around and getting to see it laying there is about a billion to one.
I am going to get off my soap box now before I get myself all worked up. lol Jim
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Minnesota Daniel
freely admits to licking rocks
A COUPLE LAKERS
Member since August 2011
Posts: 891
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Post by Minnesota Daniel on Feb 3, 2012 2:06:00 GMT -5
For the record, wolves are not endangered in Minnesota, Wisconsin or Michigan. Minnesota, with almost 3,000 wolves, is planning a hunting season for next fall, and they are discussing taking 400 wolves. I don't know what the rules will be for the sale of wolf teeth , but that would be 16,800 teeth.
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rockdude
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since May 2008
Posts: 187
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Post by rockdude on Feb 3, 2012 7:03:27 GMT -5
There is one park I used to set-up as a vendor for their annual thing which included a craft fair. Invariably I would have a young ranger come up and ask for bear teeth or something well-known to be illegal in this state. I always ask their name and then say : "you know John, soliciting a person to commit a crime is a crime in itself". They just turn pale and move along, lol.
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Post by Rockoonz on Feb 3, 2012 9:54:28 GMT -5
Regarding the collection of wood on BLM land, the rule reads "25 lbs per day plus 1 large piece, up to 250 lbs a year. Interpretation of this varies wildly from state to state. A member of the club I belong to had several conversations with BLM people in Oregon, and his suggestion to be very cautious. Some of the people he spoke with said the 25 lbs includes the 1 large piece. If camping in the collection area for several days be sure to carefully document your trip and don't carry the previous days haul with you when out hunting. A good place to check out for info regarding public lands and to keep them available for the public is: www.amlands.org/index2.htmlLee
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Post by BAZ on Feb 5, 2012 20:51:06 GMT -5
One thing I know for sure, it is illegal to take ANYTHING away from a National Park/Monument, etc., from pine needle to pebble. I am $250 less richer for that lesson.
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sticksinstones
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since February 2012
Posts: 117
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Post by sticksinstones on Feb 26, 2012 14:03:04 GMT -5
There is a shocking amount of misinformation that circulates among rockhounds regarding the legality of petrified wood collecting on public lands - and much of it has been offered up here already (the only one I didn't see but have heard many times is that "all petrified wood sites are protected as national parks" - that one's a classic). The rules can vary by site if the local authorities go through a process to change them, but the default rules on lands managed by the Dept. of the Interior (which includes BLM lands) are that you can legally collect up to 250 lbs. in one year from BLM lands. In any one day, you can collect 25 lbs. plus one piece. You cannot (under the free use clause) collect a piece over 250 lbs. without a special free use permit that says it's going to be put on public display. The stuff you collect under "free use" says it is for "personal use" and you can't sell or barter what you collect to a "commercial dealer". Note that it does NOT say that you can't sell things you make from petrified wood or even that you can't sell or trade it with another hobbyist. After having sifted through the regulations, I believe the purpose of the "can't sell it to a commercial dealer" clause (3622.4.a.3) is to keep people from getting around the commercial permit process (yes, you can obtain a commercial permit for petrified wood under the same legislation) where a commercial dealer might load a bus of individuals up and have them load a trailer with pet wood where each paid digger could claim to be working under "free use" instead of paying BLM fair market value for the material under a regular mining permit. I don't believe the restriction of "can't be sold to a commercial dealer" clause has any other purpose and I've never seen a case where someone making stuff out of wood they've legally collected under free use and selling their work (cabs, specimens, spheres, whatever) has been prosecuted and I'm aware of no case law anywhere that would support the assertions repeated in some of this thread that selling finished work made from material collected under free use is a violation of the law. You might be able to make the case that selling the rough material at a rock show is a violation, but according to the text that's only true if you sell it to a commercial dealer. "Personal use" isn't defined beyond that and there is no case law that I've ever been shown that helps clarify that. The only prosecutions I've ever heard of are for people who exceed the collecting limits without obtaining a commercial permit. If you read the actual text of the law (below) I think you can see that a blanket statement that says everyone selling stuff made of wood from public sites is violating the law is a little bit of a stretch. To further underscore the absurdity of such a claim, I'll point out that I don't know of ANY petrified wood location worth mining on BLM land that hasn't had at least one commercial permit issued. Those permits allow the miner to use heavy equipment and remove pieces of any size they find, without restriction of any kind. The ONLY purpose of the "free use" section of the federal regulations is to create an exemption for rockhounds to the normal mining rules where you have to get a permit and pay the BLM fair market value for the material you remove under that commercial permit. The regulations exempting rockhounds from those permits for limited petrified wood collecting are what many people have looked at narrowly to conclude that the stuff is "protected" (it's the "free use" exemption from the commercial permit process - that's even where it's recorded) and that's why I read the language about "and you can't turn around and sell it to a dealer" in that context. It's just to make it clear that the non-permited, free use of the mineral resource is not intended as a way for commercial miners to get around paying the BLM for the material they would otherwise have to shell out cash for under a normal commercial mining permit. From those simple words have sprung much lore (some of it sadly repeated by overzealous public servants) but precious little legal precedent. I do understand how some people could take a very narrow view of "non commercial use" and become very paranoid, and I certainly respect anyone not wanting to risk becoming that precedent (though I hardly think a guy in a booth at a rock pow wow is going to be it) but you ought to be aware of what the laws regarding petrified wood collection and mining are, and what the history of a given site is, before you go so far as to assume someone selling petrified wood is breaking the law. Here is what it actually says in the free use regulations (the text of the law): Title 43: Public Lands: Interior PART 3620—FREE USE OF PETRIFIED WOOD
Subpart 3622—Free Use of Petrified Wood
§ 3622.1 Program: General.
(a) Persons may collect limited quantities of petrified wood for noncommercial purposes under terms and conditions consistent with the preservation of significant deposits as a public recreational resource.
(b) The purchase of petrified wood for commercial purposes is provided for in §3602.10 et seq. of this chapter.
[48 FR 27015, June 10, 1983, as amended at 66 FR 58909, Nov. 23, 2001]
§ 3622.2 Procedures; permits.
No application or permit for free use is required except for specimens over 250 pounds in weight. The authorized officer may issue permits, using the procedures of subpart 3604 of this chapter, for the removal of such specimens if the applicant certifies that they will be displayed to the public in a museum or similar institution.
[48 FR 27015, June 10, 1983, as amended at 66 FR 58909, Nov. 23, 2001]
§ 3622.3 Designation of areas.
(a) All public lands administered by the Bureau of Land Management and the Bureau of Reclamation are open to or available for free use removal of petrified wood unless otherwise provided for by notice in the Federal Register. Free use areas under the jurisdiction of said Bureaus may be modified or cancelled by notices published in the Federal Register.
(b) The heads of other Bureaus in the Department of the Interior may publish in the Federal Register designations, modifications or cancellations of free use areas for petrified wood on lands under their jurisdiction.
(c) The Secretary of the Interior may designate, modify or cancel free use areas for petrified wood on public lands which are under the jurisdiction of other Federal departments or agencies, other than the Department of Agriculture, with the consent of the head of other Federal departments or agencies concerned, upon publication of notice in the Federal Register.
§ 3622.4 Collection rules.
(a) General. The authorized officer shall control the removal without charge of petrified wood from public lands using the following criteria:
(1) The maximum quantity of petrified wood that any one person is allowed to remove without charge per day is 25 pounds in weight plus one piece, provided that the maximum total amount that one person may remove in one calendar year shall not exceed 250 pounds. Pooling of quotas to obtain pieces larger than 250 pounds is not allowed.
(2) Except for holders of permits issued under subpart 3604 of this chapter to remove museum pieces, no person shall use explosives, power equipment, including, but not limited to, tractors, bulldozers, plows, power-shovels, semi-trailers or other heavy equipment for the excavation or removal of petrified wood.
(3) Petrified wood obtained under this section shall be for personal use and shall not be sold or bartered to commercial dealers.
(4) The collection of petrified wood shall be accomplished in a manner that prevents hazards to public health and safety, and minimizes and mitigates environmental damage.
(b) Additional rules. The head of the agency having jurisdiction over a free use area may establish and publish additional rules for collecting petrified wood for noncommercial purposes to supplement those included in paragraph (a) of this section.
[48 FR 27015, June 10, 1983, as amended at 66 FR 58909, Nov. 23, 2001]
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