amyk
fully equipped rock polisher
I'm a slabber, I'm a cabber, I'm a midnight wrapper.
Member since January 2010
Posts: 1,331
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Post by amyk on Jan 8, 2014 22:30:43 GMT -5
Hello everyone,
I am getting very frustrated. I have tried 3 different torches including a bernzomatic penlite, a Wall Lenk micro torch (2400 degrees) and out of frustration i grabbed the bernzomatic propane torch from the garage.
All of these torches burn and melt my bezel wire and not my solder. I am using paste flux which burns off immediatly, and use wire solder. i have tried this on both copper and argentium silver. I am using copper and argentium solder. I am moving the torch in circles around the piece, and waiting as long as ten minutes. (depending on which torch) The solder turns bright red but does not melt. Then the bezel melts and becomes disfigured.
I purchased these solders from rio grande and is supposed to be easy hardness. It seems like it is just wire. and very hard wire at that.
What am I doing wrong? Has anyone else had this happen? About 2 years ago I took a class in silversmithing and it was a lot easier and i had no trouble at all. Of course we used acetylene torch for the class. But I have seen these smaller torches work for others.
Please give any help you can, so i can stop banging my head on the wall and wasting wire.
Amy
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Post by radio on Jan 8, 2014 23:17:05 GMT -5
If it actually is solder and not wire, then the culprit must be the flux. I use a liquid flux in a needle tipped dispenser squeeze bottle and have this happen on occasion. I use snippets of wire solder for most bezels and when it doesn't melt, I will put a drop of flux on it and it then melts and flows as it should. Argentium is more difficult and temperamental to work with than regular Sterling and I do not recommend it for anyone unless they already have a great deal of bench time soldering. Also make sure your snippets of solder touch both the bezel and the base. Unless your pieces are pretty small, the first two torches are either underpowered or you are soldering your bezel on a thick back that absorbs a lot of heat. Too hot of a flame can also melt bezel before the backing comes to temp, so make sure to heat the back in the circular motions you described and let the heat flow from it to the bezel. I would also pick up a small bottle of Battern's or Pripp's liquid flux to use instead of the paste solder. I would recommend sticking with Sterling until you master soldering before moving to Argentium. Don't get discouraged and give it up.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Member since January 1970
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 23:23:18 GMT -5
I am thinking radio is dead on. It's not solder. Even without flux solder will melt into liquid at the correct temps.
Put the end of it into the hottest part of your hottest flame and see what happens. Solder will melt and pour away.
Is your material magnetic?
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amyk
fully equipped rock polisher
I'm a slabber, I'm a cabber, I'm a midnight wrapper.
Member since January 2010
Posts: 1,331
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Post by amyk on Jan 8, 2014 23:41:19 GMT -5
I don't think anything is magnetic. I will try the liquid solder. I have some but have not tried it yet. I have been holding the bezel wire with stainless steel tweezers while applying the flame to it. I apply flame all around it and the wire bends and deforms and the solder just sits there. When i try to put the bezel to the back plate, I sit it on a soldering tripod. I ordered a charcoal block. maybe I will have better results with that. I will try melting the solder directly. thanks for the tips. If none of this works, I guess I will have to break down and spend some more money and get some sterling. This hobby sure costs a lot of money while we are learning. LOL
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Post by radio on Jan 9, 2014 0:13:49 GMT -5
I am thinking radio is dead on. It's not solder. Even without flux solder will melt into liquid at the correct temps. Put the end of it into the hottest part of your hottest flame and see what happens. Solder will melt and pour away. Is your material magnetic? I have had easy flow solder turn red and not melt if it is not in contact with the flux, so it is possible it actually is solder. Argentium is a PITA to work with unless you have all your ducks in a row. It will often just turn red, crinkle on the surface and cause vocabulary words not suitable for a family forum Suspend a piece of the solder upside down and apply heat to the end. If it is actually wire, it should draw up into a ball before dropping off the end. If it is Ag solder, it will likely just kind of shrivel a bit and not do much. Ag solder is a royal PITA to work with and I suspect that, the paste flux and small torches have combined to create your dilemma. If you have liquid flux ditch the paste, use the micro torch and experiment on soldering two pieces of scrap together. Learn how your combination of things work before trying another piece you want to actually be something. I would recommend ordering some regular (not Argentium) ezflow wire solder, use liquid flux and try again. Good luck and don't give up! One more word here. Using wire solder gets expensive unless you cut it in snippets like you would a sheet solder. The only time I run wire directly on a piece is when I am soldering twisted wire or other embellishments around the outside of the bezel. Snip pieces off the wire about 2mm long, place those on the piece with tweezers or use the solder pick method. I would recommend buying a needle tip flux bottle also. Wish you were close enough to swing by and play at my bench a while. another little trick is to make a loop or curl on the end of your wire solder so you don't confuse it with wire.
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amyk
fully equipped rock polisher
I'm a slabber, I'm a cabber, I'm a midnight wrapper.
Member since January 2010
Posts: 1,331
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Post by amyk on Jan 9, 2014 1:10:52 GMT -5
Thanks Radio. I am already cutting the wire solder and using the pick method. I put a fairly large amount of paste flux under the solder pieces. The same thing happens with the copper and copper solder. Can I use sterling solder with the argentium sheet?
I will try melting the solder wire and let u know what happens. Too cold to go outside now. will try it tomorrow.
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Post by radio on Jan 9, 2014 1:37:12 GMT -5
Thanks Radio. I am already cutting the wire solder and using the pick method. I put a fairly large amount of paste flux under the solder pieces. The same thing happens with the copper and copper solder. Can I use sterling solder with the argentium sheet? I will try melting the solder wire and let u know what happens. Too cold to go outside now. will try it tomorrow. Yes, you can use sterling solder with Ag sheet and Ag solder with Sterling sheet. You can also use either one of the Silver solders for copper and copper solder on Silver. Not that one would want to, but it will work. I solder from 2 to 4 rings and pendants together every day and I still am surprised at the difference when I have to work with Ag, so it isn't just your imagination. Where are you located? You can PM me if you like
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zarguy
fully equipped rock polisher
Cedar City, Utah - rockhound heaven!
Member since December 2005
Posts: 1,791
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Post by zarguy on Jan 9, 2014 2:10:48 GMT -5
Could the solder be dirty? Try cleaning the end of the wire with steel wool before snipping off little pieces. Lynn
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Post by 1dave on Jan 9, 2014 3:32:52 GMT -5
I have 7 strips purchased as hard solder 40 years ago that are NOT solder! Someone at the supply house (Rio Grand? too long ago to remember for sure) made a mistake.
a snippet of this stuff alone, held in the hottest part of the flame for ten minutes doesn't even curl on the corners. Sterling would have turned into a ball within a minute. It has to be German silver.
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Post by rockjunquie on Jan 9, 2014 8:47:43 GMT -5
I've haven't done a lot of soldering to offer up the good advice you are getting here, but I did catch that you are soldering outside. Right? I wonder if it was too cold outside? You may be having trouble keeping everything evenly heated outside. Just a thought.
I'd like to make the switch to liquid flux in the near future. The big reason why I quit this the first time I tried to learn was because of the paste flux (handy flux). But, I have since learned that, as a beginner, it can be your friend. After it bubbles and then goes clear the metal is at a good temp for easy solder to flow. I like to pick solder when I can, so this is a handy indicator as to when to move in with the pick.
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jamesp
Cave Dweller
Member since October 2012
Posts: 36,155
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Post by jamesp on Jan 9, 2014 9:11:51 GMT -5
Proper flux and cleaning the solder or cutting to fresh solder are two big ones.
Applying heat in proportion to unequal sizes is another.
Small torch not making enough heat.
I like liquid flux too. I do not know why but it has done me well.
Listen to Radio. Great detailed info. Thanks i needed that.
And Dave and connrock and the other solderonions...
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Post by 1dave on Jan 9, 2014 14:31:04 GMT -5
If you are working with copper, #1 have a bright shiny surface! Brown copper oxide sheds solder. #2 Copper shares heat with all it's surrounding atoms! A big piece will soak up a LOT of heat to get to the required temperature.
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steelandstone
has rocks in the head
Member since September 2008
Posts: 500
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Post by steelandstone on Jan 11, 2014 13:14:02 GMT -5
I too have this happen on occasion and it usually is the lack of enough flux or dirty solder. I have used numerous fluxes from Handy flux to cupronil and currently use a self pickling flux from Rio. Here is the link My-T-FluxI also use this Gel Flux for joining the edges of the bezel tape together it works really well. Gel FluxNo matter what flux you use I have to stress the solder needs to be Clean, Clean, Clean Just like the silver itself. I have had times where I thought I had it all clean and just could not get a pinhole to close up on a bezel/backing joint and all it needed was a little longer soak in the pickle and then a slight scrub with a wire wheel. Good Luck
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gemfeller
Cave Dweller
Member since June 2011
Posts: 3,775
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Post by gemfeller on Jan 11, 2014 16:23:36 GMT -5
No matter what flux you use I have to stress the solder needs to be Clean, Clean, Clean Just like the silver itself. From considerable personal experience I'd like to agree with and underscore this comment. Clean solder is crucial. I use sheet Sterling solder and keep a little pad of green 3-M scouring cloth to clean it before cutting pallions. Rick
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steelandstone
has rocks in the head
Member since September 2008
Posts: 500
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Post by steelandstone on Jan 11, 2014 16:37:06 GMT -5
No matter what flux you use I have to stress the solder needs to be Clean, Clean, Clean Just like the silver itself. From considerable personal experience I'd like to agree with and underscore this comment. Clean solder is crucial. I use sheet Sterling solder and keep a little pad of green 3-M scouring cloth to clean it before cutting pallions. Rick Rick, Thank you for mentioning the 3M pad as I do the same but failed to give that little tid bit of info and it is a good tip.
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