Can water glass be polished?

[rockjunquie]

I know some people use it to seal fractures and what not, but I want to seal a slab or extremely soft material. (It's worth the trouble.) Can I seal it with water glass and be able to polish it easier? Is it permanent?

[vegasjames]

Bit of a complicated question to answer. Water glass is sodium or potassium silicate, which is water soluble and so may not remain in or one the stone when cabbing.

On the other hand this is one of the things I have used to help harden and stabilize some of the softer calcium rich stones such as the high dolomite and calcite copper ores and Nevada Tiffany stone In this case the sodium silicate I use does not remain as sodium silicate. Instead the sodium silicate reacts with the calcium forming an insoluble calcium silicate. To prevent just a crust rapidly forming though I make the sodium silicate very fluid first with purified water to allow better penetration in to the stones. Then I put the stones and more fluid sodium silicate in a sealed jar and place outside in the sun for a couple of weeks. That way when the sun heats everything up it pushes the sit out of the pockets in the stone then when it cools the solution is pulled in.

The other option is to again make the sodium silicate very fluid, soak the stones then use something to polymerize the sodium silicate. I generally use denatured alcohol but various acids (hydrochloric, citric, etc.) also work. When this dries it will leave a white crust, but this polishes off easily.

Now the other issue. The sodium silicate even when polymerized is reactive to high heat causing it to expand in to a hard foam. So the process can work great for cabbing and wire wrapping but I would not recommend it if the stone is going to be close to the heat of a torch.

[rockjunquie]

Thanks James. I think the second option sounds good. Something to think about. I could use ascorbic acid as a polymerizer right?

[vegasjames]

May 16, 2019 19:53:28 GMT -5 rockjunquie said:

Thanks James. I think the second option sounds good. Something to think about. I could use ascorbic acid as a polymerizer right?

Yes, ascorbic acid will also work. More expensive though and not very stable.  The synthetic ascorbic acid rapidly breaks down in to oxalic acid, especially in the presence of moisture or light. Citric acid is much cheaper and stable.

[QuailRiver]

Here is a formula for stabilizing water glass that I had saved as a document file several years ago. I have not tried using this formula myself. And unfortunately I do not remember who the original author was in order to give them credit. My apologies to the original author for not saving that information.

"Here is the Waterglass/Emergen-c silication formula. The addition of Emergen-C makes the silication waterproof where straight Waterglass will not hold up to the lapidary processes.

Since most stones are cut in water and will probably be subjected to immersion and water-based cleaners, waterglass isn't a satisfactory stabilizer. Various chemical processes can cause silicates to polymerize into opal or agate, as occurs in petrified wood. The hardened silicate from my procedure is clear and colorless. It's not as fast as epoxy, but treated material is "rock-solid" --- no undercutting or discoloration with age. In the end, it's also safer, cleaner and a lot cheaper than Opticon or other epoxies.

Here's the general procedure that seems to be working now. It's not as involved as it may seem at first glance, and gets easier with practice.

1) Clean slabs (or rough less than 1" thick) in a solution of hot water and trisodium phosphate (available in most paint departments for wall cleaning) prepared in the concentration specified for grease removal. I let them soak overnight. This may cause some slight color change - deeper blues and greens on
chrysocolla and turquoise. Rinse slabs thoroughly and allow to air-dry.

2) For this step, you need a shallow, lidded stainless steel (not iron or aluminum) pot or pan and a means of holding temperature at around 180 F, substantially below boiling. I found a thrift store electric buffet warming plate which worked nicely. The stabilizing formula is based on sodium silicate solution with a weight ratio of around 3.2 (available at <http://www.chemistrystore.com/sodium_silicate.htm>
www.chemistrystore.com/sodium_silicate.htm and other similar sources).
Read the MSDS! This solution is caustic, and you should wear eye and skin protection to handle it. Spray the pot lid edge with PAM or other cooking spray to keep it from adhering to the pot. Clean up drips and used utensils immediately with warm water. If the solution gets on fabric, rinse and wash it before the silicate dries.

3) Now, this is where things get a little weird... it takes a combination of very low activity organic acid and alkali mineral salts (carbonates, phosphates and sulfates of calcium, potassium, etc.) to get the silicate to polymerize in a non-water-soluble form, e.g. as agate. Though this can be done with very concentrated mineral water (about 1 gallon boiled down to 1 cup) and aspirin or citric acid, I found the easiest and cheapest way to do this was with Emer-Gen-C Lite mineral supplement packets. ***It's important to get the Lite sugar-free version --- sugar or fructose will oxidize and may discolor the stones.***
Dissolve one packet of Emer-gen-C in 1 cup (approx. 250 ml) of water and allow the fizzing to disperse. Add this solution to 8 oz. of sodium silicate in the stainless steel pot and stir to mix. For stones with very fine porosities or hairline cracks, add about 1 teaspoon of liquid dish soap to reduce the viscosity of the solution.

4) Submerge the slabs in silicate solution in a single layer. Stacked slabs may stick together. Cover and let stand on the heat source for at least 24 hours. Longer cooking won't hurt... I've left some material in for up to 4 days. [For very thick material, a pressure cooker has been suggested, but the risks of
silicate splash clogging the vent mechanism are too great for my peace of mind.]

Remove the slabs and set them on a spray-greased baking rack over newspaper.
Allow the slabs to drip dry. The dried slabs are safe to handle bare-handed, and
can be gently pried off the rack if they stick. A word of caution --- dried silicate can be as sharp as glass!

5) Place the dry slabs on a cookie sheet and set in a cold oven. Turn the oven to "warm" and leave it on overnight. Turn the oven off and allow the stones to cool to room temperature with the door closed. The slabs should look shiny and any deep cracks will be partially filled. Porous stones should feel noticeably
heavier after this treatment. at this point, you can re-clean the stone and "paint" silicate formula to fill larger cracks and voids. Repeat the drying and baking processes to set the added silicate.

The whole cleaning, soaking, drying and baking process can be repeated as many times as you feel necessary. There may be some brownish surface discoloration on the stone, but this comes off with polishing.

Silicate solution can be reused multiple times, adding a little water to replenish the volume. The solution may have some precipitated white silica gel and will turn tea-colored. When a thick layer of silica gel has precipitated and the solution seems thin, treat it by pouring out on about a pound of scoopable cat litter, allowing the litter to dry, then discarding it in regular trash. Don't pour it down the sink.

I've tried to explain in as much detail as I've gleaned from a half dozen or so different trials. So far, it's worked on slabs and rough of many different jaspers, chrysocolla, turquoise, Laguna, Botswana, plume and moss agates, Koroit opal, petrified woods and fossil coral."


Larry C.

[catmandewe]

May 16, 2019 22:54:05 GMT -5 QuailRiver said:

Here is a formula for stabilizing water glass that I had saved as a document file several years ago. I have not tried using this formula myself. And unfortunately I do not remember who the original author was in order to give them credit. My apologies to the original author for not saving that information.

"Here is the Waterglass/Emergen-c silication formula. The addition of Emergen-C makes the silication waterproof where straight Waterglass will not hold up to the lapidary processes.

Since most stones are cut in water and will probably be subjected to immersion and water-based cleaners, waterglass isn't a satisfactory stabilizer. Various chemical processes can cause silicates to polymerize into opal or agate, as occurs in petrified wood. The hardened silicate from my procedure is clear and colorless. It's not as fast as epoxy, but treated material is "rock-solid" --- no undercutting or discoloration with age. In the end, it's also safer, cleaner and a lot cheaper than Opticon or other epoxies.

Here's the general procedure that seems to be working now. It's not as involved as it may seem at first glance, and gets easier with practice.

1) Clean slabs (or rough less than 1" thick) in a solution of hot water and trisodium phosphate (available in most paint departments for wall cleaning) prepared in the concentration specified for grease removal. I let them soak overnight. This may cause some slight color change - deeper blues and greens on
chrysocolla and turquoise. Rinse slabs thoroughly and allow to air-dry.

2) For this step, you need a shallow, lidded stainless steel (not iron or aluminum) pot or pan and a means of holding temperature at around 180 F, substantially below boiling. I found a thrift store electric buffet warming plate which worked nicely. The stabilizing formula is based on sodium silicate solution with a weight ratio of around 3.2 (available at <http://www.chemistrystore.com/sodium_silicate.htm>
www.chemistrystore.com/sodium_silicate.htm and other similar sources).
Read the MSDS! This solution is caustic, and you should wear eye and skin protection to handle it. Spray the pot lid edge with PAM or other cooking spray to keep it from adhering to the pot. Clean up drips and used utensils immediately with warm water. If the solution gets on fabric, rinse and wash it before the silicate dries.

3) Now, this is where things get a little weird... it takes a combination of very low activity organic acid and alkali mineral salts (carbonates, phosphates and sulfates of calcium, potassium, etc.) to get the silicate to polymerize in a non-water-soluble form, e.g. as agate. Though this can be done with very concentrated mineral water (about 1 gallon boiled down to 1 cup) and aspirin or citric acid, I found the easiest and cheapest way to do this was with Emer-Gen-C Lite mineral supplement packets. ***It's important to get the Lite sugar-free version --- sugar or fructose will oxidize and may discolor the stones.***
Dissolve one packet of Emer-gen-C in 1 cup (approx. 250 ml) of water and allow the fizzing to disperse. Add this solution to 8 oz. of sodium silicate in the stainless steel pot and stir to mix. For stones with very fine porosities or hairline cracks, add about 1 teaspoon of liquid dish soap to reduce the viscosity of the solution.

4) Submerge the slabs in silicate solution in a single layer. Stacked slabs may stick together. Cover and let stand on the heat source for at least 24 hours. Longer cooking won't hurt... I've left some material in for up to 4 days. [For very thick material, a pressure cooker has been suggested, but the risks of
silicate splash clogging the vent mechanism are too great for my peace of mind.]

Remove the slabs and set them on a spray-greased baking rack over newspaper.
Allow the slabs to drip dry. The dried slabs are safe to handle bare-handed, and
can be gently pried off the rack if they stick. A word of caution --- dried silicate can be as sharp as glass!

5) Place the dry slabs on a cookie sheet and set in a cold oven. Turn the oven to "warm" and leave it on overnight. Turn the oven off and allow the stones to cool to room temperature with the door closed. The slabs should look shiny and any deep cracks will be partially filled. Porous stones should feel noticeably
heavier after this treatment. at this point, you can re-clean the stone and "paint" silicate formula to fill larger cracks and voids. Repeat the drying and baking processes to set the added silicate.

The whole cleaning, soaking, drying and baking process can be repeated as many times as you feel necessary. There may be some brownish surface discoloration on the stone, but this comes off with polishing.

Silicate solution can be reused multiple times, adding a little water to replenish the volume. The solution may have some precipitated white silica gel and will turn tea-colored. When a thick layer of silica gel has precipitated and the solution seems thin, treat it by pouring out on about a pound of scoopable cat litter, allowing the litter to dry, then discarding it in regular trash. Don't pour it down the sink.

I've tried to explain in as much detail as I've gleaned from a half dozen or so different trials. So far, it's worked on slabs and rough of many different jaspers, chrysocolla, turquoise, Laguna, Botswana, plume and moss agates, Koroit opal, petrified woods and fossil coral."


Larry C.

I have used this method and it does work.
It was originally posted by Jamie (desertdweller) on this forum many years ago.
It is not as hard to do as it sounds.

Tony

[rockjunquie]

Thanks guys! 

[rmf]

rockjunquie go to: paleobond.com/shop/ Then select PB002 Penetrant Stabilizer what ever volume you need. This is water thin CA and it will penetrate your slab. I have tried fracture sealer and had poor results. I use this CA all the time to stabilize P. Wood before polishing big pieces.
1oz is $7.50 and 2oz is $12 and that is a lot of CA. The CA in the local stores is more like there PB40. Much thicker.

[rockjunquie]

May 17, 2019 13:40:55 GMT -5 rmf said:

rockjunquie go to: paleobond.com/shop/ Then select PB002 Penetrant Stabilizer what ever volume you need. This is water thin CA and it will penetrate your slab. I have tried fracture sealer and had poor results. I use this CA all the time to stabilize P. Wood before polishing big pieces.
1oz is $7.50 and 2oz is $12 and that is a lot of CA. The CA in the local stores is more like there PB40. Much thicker.

I have thin Starbond brand- is that about the same do you think?

[rmf]

Not familiar with that brand, Sorry

[rockjunquie]

I got the sodium silicate, but Emergen- C lite is no longer available. I wonder if straight vitamin c (ascorbic acid) will do it?

[Dr DG]

I use 330 epoxy and acetone to stabilized turquoise and slabs. it drys clear and it takes a polish.

[vegasjames]

May 21, 2019 13:30:11 GMT -5 rockjunquie said:

I got the sodium silicate, but Emergen- C lite is no longer available. I wonder if straight vitamin c (ascorbic acid) will do it?

It should. Emergen_C is ascorbic acid and sodium bicarbonate so when mixed in water forms carbonic acid and sodium ascorbate.  So either way you will have an acid to polymerize the sodium silicate.

By the way the least expensive sodium silicate solution I have been able to find is from ceramic supply companies. Look for one close to you to reduce shipping costs.

[EricD]

May 21, 2019 13:30:11 GMT -5 rockjunquie said:

I got the sodium silicate, but Emergen- C lite is no longer available. I wonder if straight vitamin c (ascorbic acid) will do it?

Did you ever end up trying this Tela? If so how did you like the result?

[rockjunquie]

Mar 16, 2020 12:56:13 GMT -5 EricD said:

May 21, 2019 13:30:11 GMT -5 rockjunquie said:

I got the sodium silicate, but Emergen- C lite is no longer available. I wonder if straight vitamin c (ascorbic acid) will do it?

Did you ever end up trying this Tela? If so how did you like the result?

No, I have not tried it. I'm thinking I'll stick with hxtal for now.