Intheswamp
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Post by Intheswamp on Sept 26, 2015 10:12:21 GMT -5
I'll have to weigh the barrel and see, captbob...it's at the shop so will probably be Monday before I can(will need to remember to carry the scales, too!). Thanks for the oil recommendation...I was figuring a drop or two. Nope, motor pulley won't spin when the load is on it and it's powered up. Give it a shove or two and it starts up. I don't think the belt is too tight...but now I'm wondering if it's too loose. I only hear the faintest hum when I plug it in and a load is on it. I'll have to feel and see if that pulley is turning but the belt is slipping...I don't think it is, though, being as when it start turning it seems to turn the belt ok. I'll definitely check that, though. I haven't MacGyvered it yet. Still pondering over some ideas. I liked Jim's idea of some externally mounted idler wheels. First thing that I've got to do is figure out the motor issue...if it's not going to carry the load then it's back to square one and a different tumbling machine.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 26, 2015 17:10:46 GMT -5
I'll have to weigh the barrel and see, captbob...it's at the shop so will probably be Monday before I can(will need to remember to carry the scales, too!). Thanks for the oil recommendation...I was figuring a drop or two. Nope, motor pulley won't spin when the load is on it and it's powered up. Give it a shove or two and it starts up. I don't think the belt is too tight...but now I'm wondering if it's too loose. I only hear the faintest hum when I plug it in and a load is on it. I'll have to feel and see if that pulley is turning but the belt is slipping...I don't think it is, though, being as when it start turning it seems to turn the belt ok. I'll definitely check that, though. I haven't MacGyvered it yet. Still pondering over some ideas. I liked Jim's idea of some externally mounted idler wheels. First thing that I've got to do is figure out the motor issue...if it's not going to carry the load then it's back to square one and a different tumbling machine. One problem with a motor on the edge is power outages. If your not there to help it restart it may cook the motor.
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Intheswamp
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Post by Intheswamp on Sept 27, 2015 8:41:11 GMT -5
That is what I'm concerned about, the motor being on the edge. Something tells me that oiling it isn't going to help it much. We will see, though...and I've still gotta weigh the loaded barrel to be sure I'm not severly overloading the motor. The Model A was designed for 6# of rock. Going back to the DIY build of a tumbler... The pillow bearings...are the set-screw-only ones sufficient or should I get to of the eccentric lock ones? Am I over-engineering things? Thanks. Motor, I've got a round roll-around shop fan that had it's blade to break free at the hub...motor's in good shape, it is direct-drive (not belt driven). I'm going to check it's HP rating and rpm out when I get back to work, it's 120v. The only thing is that it mounts from the front to heavy metal round straps criss-crossing inside the fan...I'd have to make some type of mount for it to attach to the side of the tumbler. (I'm no engineer and I don't weld. ). I've also got another belt drive floor fan that I'm thinking of retiring...I have two and seldom use either one. All of the fans are in the 30"-36" class.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 27, 2015 9:55:24 GMT -5
That is what I'm concerned about, the motor being on the edge. Something tells me that oiling it isn't going to help it much. We will see, though...and I've still gotta weigh the loaded barrel to be sure I'm not severly overloading the motor. The Model A was designed for 6# of rock. Going back to the DIY build of a tumbler... The pillow bearings...are the set-screw-only ones sufficient or should I get to of the eccentric lock ones? Am I over-engineering things? Thanks. Motor, I've got a round roll-around shop fan that had it's blade to break free at the hub...motor's in good shape, it is direct-drive (not belt driven). I'm going to check it's HP rating and rpm out when I get back to work, it's 120v. The only thing is that it mounts from the front to heavy metal round straps criss-crossing inside the fan...I'd have to make some type of mount for it to attach to the side of the tumbler. (I'm no engineer and I don't weld. ). I've also got another belt drive floor fan that I'm thinking of retiring...I have two and seldom use either one. All of the fans are in the 30"-36" class. memories revisited, I avoided using any more set screws on the shaft to avoid denting the shaft. tumblers often rust and makes bearing replacement a bear. Nicked shafts make trouble sliding bearings off. so I went with split locking collars from Surplus C. they are sure footed.
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Post by captbob on Sept 27, 2015 10:02:09 GMT -5
That is the same motor that Thumler's uses on all it's models up to (including) the 12 lb unit. There is a larger motor on the 15 lb Model B tumbler.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 27, 2015 10:05:10 GMT -5
motors mounted like this best Ed. Being that it is mounted on wood, it is easy(drilling wood instead of stubborn steel) to mount. Being a tall wood structure you can move the motor up and down a lot to make several size belts work. Wood frame quiet too.
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Post by johnjsgems on Sept 27, 2015 11:16:02 GMT -5
The "A" is now the AR-2 and comes with two 3 lb. barrels. Maybe try lighter filler like ceramics and see if motor will start with lighter load.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 27, 2015 13:26:25 GMT -5
If you want to tumble with 6-15 pound barrels you may do fine with a factory unit. That unit turns those and much larger barrels or multiple barrels. You can make a decision on your capacity and go from there. I think I built that for about the price of a 12-15 pound factory tumbler using scavenged motor. And it was a simple build. Carpentry, drilling holes in wood, and alignment was the bulk of the work. Do prefer the wood frame over the other with welded frame.
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Intheswamp
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Post by Intheswamp on Sept 27, 2015 17:29:29 GMT -5
memories revisited, I avoided using any more set screws on the shaft to avoid denting the shaft. tumblers often rust and makes bearing replacement a bear. Nicked shafts make trouble sliding bearings off. so I went with split locking collars from Surplus C. they are sure footed. Hmmm.... I'm simple-minded so I'm trying to figure out how to use these collars. Do you put one on each end of the shaft on the inside of the frame thus "trapping" the shaft between the frame ends? What you say about scarring the shafts makes sense and sounds like is words of experience.
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Intheswamp
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Post by Intheswamp on Sept 27, 2015 18:16:28 GMT -5
motors mounted like this best Ed. Being that it is mounted on wood, it is easy(drilling wood instead of stubborn steel) to mount. Being a tall wood structure you can move the motor up and down a lot to make several size belts work. Wood frame quiet too. I'd love to find one with the base plate mount but all I've got on hand are front mounts...I'll keep looking. I got to thinking about using fan motors.... The direct drive motors do not really experience any sideways torque (such as from a pulley belt)....I wonder if putting a pulley and belt on them messes with their bearings?
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Intheswamp
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Post by Intheswamp on Sept 27, 2015 18:21:39 GMT -5
If you want to tumble with 6-15 pound barrels you may do fine with a factory unit. That unit turns those and much larger barrels or multiple barrels. You can make a decision on your capacity and go from there. I think I built that for about the price of a 12-15 pound factory tumbler using scavenged motor. And it was a simple build. Carpentry, drilling holes in wood, and alignment was the bulk of the work. Do prefer the wood frame over the other with welded frame. Yeah, I'm trying to decide whether to go with a diy large tumbler or a "store bought" one. If I could scrounge a good portion of the parts I'd like to build, especially if I can come out below the cost of a retail one. I like the sound and vibration dampening of the wooden frames.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 27, 2015 19:36:28 GMT -5
the shaft clamps can trap one bearing from each side = 2 I suggest trapping two bearings = 4
no problem with pulleys damaging direct drive fan motors dirty fan blades can create imbalance. bearings must resist such the face mount can be a hassle
I use that wood tumbler to tumble about 50-60 pounds of steel parts to remove rust and mix fertilizer in 100 pound lots in screw top 15 gallon drums. It has one inch shafts. So it has other duties heavier than a 40 pound tumbling barrel.
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Post by 1dave on Sept 28, 2015 7:34:58 GMT -5
I like manofglass (Walt)'s idea of drilling holes in hardwood instead of buying bearings.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 28, 2015 10:17:16 GMT -5
Wood bearings good enough for a submarine, oughta be fine for a tumbler. Pure poetry.
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Intheswamp
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Post by Intheswamp on Sept 28, 2015 10:46:30 GMT -5
Well, after adding up the price of different parts I'm seeing that I can probably by a retail Thumler, Lortone, etc., tumbler for the same (or maybe less) than what I'm looking at investing in a diy tumbler to tumble around 15 pounds of rough. BUT...the diy tumbler would have much more capacity than a retail version if I ever decided to coarse tumble large volumes....*or* have several different barrels going at once. The pvc barrels are not cheap once you figure the cost of fittings, they approach the price of the retail manufactured barrels. BUT (again)...you have the versatility of making them the size that you want to...for example, to go from a ~6-pound barrel in the 6" size to a ~14-pound one in the same pipe size would only add the cost of 6 more inches of pipe. I was curious as to how much different sized pvc barrels would hold so I put together a little spreadsheet....with probably some bad data, but it's hopefully in the ballpark. I used .85333 ounces per cubic inch of tumbling rough(mostly 1-1.5 inch rocks). This weight was what I arrived at during checking my pvc pipe out....that is without an grit, smalls, nor water added...just tumbling rough. This is my uneducated guesstimate. Pipe Size Radius Length Cubic Inch 100% Cap lb. 75% Cap lb. 4"pvc 2 6 75.40 4.01 3.00 4"pvc 2 7 87.96 4.67 3.50 4"pvc 2 8 100.53 5.34 4.01 4"pvc 2 9 113.10 6.01 4.51 6"pvc 3 6 169.65 9.01 6.76 6"pvc 3 8 226.19 12.02 9.01 6"pvc 3 10 282.74 15.02 11.27 6"pvc 3 12 339.29 18.02 13.52 6"pvc 3 16 452.39 24.03 18.02 6"pvc 3 20 565.49 30.04 22.53 6"pvc 3 24 678.58 36.05 27.04 6"pvc 3 28 791.68 42.06 31.54 6"pvc 3 32 904.78 48.07 36.05 8"pvc 4 8 402.12 21.36 16.02 8"pvc 4 16 804.25 42.73 32.04 So...how far off am I? So, the decision of a diy tumbler versus a retail version seems to *me* to depend on why I anticipate as volume or whether I will have the desire to possibly tumble multiple (large) barrels at once. With diy you get more options, it seems, more versatility. With retail you get a set volume and plug-n-play. Decisions, decisions,....they's killin' me!!!!!!!!!!!!
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 28, 2015 11:39:01 GMT -5
darn close. 16 inch 6 Dia is 15-16 pounds. small rocks heavier due to less void. That would be rocks on the 1-2 inch size. Filled it with small garnets to 3/4 and it weighed 24 pounds, garnets DENSE, little void.
ha, 2 barrels min. three better. 12-15 pounds each. But I collect coral en mass. Lot's of tumbling material.
Great calculations Ed. The 8 inch X 16" looks bang on.
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Intheswamp
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Post by Intheswamp on Sept 28, 2015 14:02:31 GMT -5
I could nudge the weight per ounce up a touch to get it closer to real life. The rocks I used definitely left voids in the barrel.
I just checked an old fan I have in the shop...haven't used it in a long time...the blades and metal frame are good, just the wood box is about shot. This motor has a 1/2" shaft on it with a 2" pulley. It's service spec is 1.0 and it's time rating is continuous. Only thing is that it's rated 1/2hp...says 3.7/5.? amps...does the dual amps designations state no-load and loaded conditions? Once the tumbler starts turning does it decrease the load or is it mostly constant being as the contents are constantly moving? Does 15" of rock place a heavy load on one of these. That 1/2hp might be kinda overkill for what I'm needing and expensive dollar-wise to run...I'm thinking around 330kwh at ~.15 per kw or $50-60 a month in electricity???
I'm beginning to think I need to scale down my tumbler if for no other reason than for energy savings. After looking, even if I dropped to a 1/4hp motor it isn't going to save a whole lot over the 1/2hp in electricity use. I wonder how small of a motor I could you go with and still have some headroom to turn 15-20 pounds of rock? Hmmm....
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 28, 2015 14:57:17 GMT -5
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Intheswamp
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Post by Intheswamp on Sept 28, 2015 15:20:33 GMT -5
Jim, the link loops me back to this page of the forum. Are you talking about the tumbler on page 2 with the red bucket sitting in front of it. That sounds good about the 1/8hp motor...I don't need to be paying the power company anymore than I need to! I'll continue my search, but for a smaller motor. The other fan that I mentioned is a smaller motor, might be 1/8hp but will have to look. Problem is it's in a round metal box with hard wire guards on it and mounts to the guard...not a standard base mount motor.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 28, 2015 18:35:10 GMT -5
Yes that photo. And that is a 40-45 pound 8 inch barrel. It may be 60 pounds, never weighed it but it holds a heavy load. No less than 40 ! The 1/8 HP I have came out of a commercial roof top A/C unit, well made top brand. But very used and rusty. Like 1100 RPM. Lot of fan motors are fat and short, like a ceiling fan motor. Many have less RPM and higher torque. great for tumbler.
When you see a motor that says 3.7/7.4 amps that means 7.4 amps at 110VAC connection or 3.7 amps at 220 VAC connection. Some motors dual voltage. I would stick with the lower voltage for safety reasons.
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