richardh
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2016
Posts: 391
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Post by richardh on Aug 22, 2016 18:13:16 GMT -5
You're maybe expecting a wee bit too much from your rocks and your tumbler. Tumbling isn't really meant to produce vast quantities of stones that are perfect in every way. If you insist on perfection, get into cabbing, or faceting, and spend 1-100 hours on each stone, and you'll end up with a much more valuable finished product. Or, you'll just have to put the time into each stone, prepping it by hand. Use a very coarse diamond wheel, or make a mega grinder from diamond cups or diamond blades on a shaft, spinning fast. Sit, for hour after hour, and-grind the concavities, sharp edges, chips, pits and cracks out of each stone. Not something I'm ever going to do, as I'm into production, but to each his own. Most people will look at a batch of nicely polished tumbles and LOVE them; they'll never see the flaws you're worrying about. I figure a few really cool ones out of a ten pound batch is pretty good. Also, you should learn more about the material you're collecting, especially start hardness testing. Don't bother with stuff softer than quartz. Most beach pebbles are junk for tumbling, at least in my experience. It's hard to go wrong with agates and jaspers; but try to find a nearby rockshop, this will cut the cost and allow you to see what you're buying. Again, don't expect too much from tumbling rough... it's usually the lower grade material that isn't good for slabbing. Join a local rock club, see what's available in your area. Don't worry so much about perfection, just have fun with it. And a week in polish isn't unusual for me, even with a vibe. Yes I'm sure I have unrealistic expectations and I am sure they will get more reasonable with experience. The batch I am working on now is all red jasper that I collected. I know what you mean about softer rock. My second batch was three pounds of blue appetite and I definitely couldn't get that to shine at all. Definitely way too advanced for me. I look at all the awesome photos at this site and dream of making something like what I see there. Some of the people here make it look so easy. I find drooling over those lovely photos makes it difficult for me to be patient. I can't stop myself from looking though. I feel like some of the flaws and issues that I am seeing in my tumbles are probably diagnostic and that someone with more experience could look at them and say something like, "oh that type of damage is because you don't have enough water in the barrel." Or, "you can fix that problem by adding more media..." Being so new it is hard for me to figure out what my issues are. One thing I am really thankful for is that a generous member here sent me some material that he has gotten fantastic results from so if I get poor results with it I will feel more confident that it is my technique that is causing the problem. A few cool rocks out of a 10lb batch definitely sets a different expectation, especially since my tumbler is only a 3lb machine so I am running 2lb batches. So maybe one really good one per batch would be more realistic.
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richardh
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2016
Posts: 391
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Post by richardh on Aug 22, 2016 17:58:05 GMT -5
I am saving my pennies for a Lot-O and have been reading reviews, posts and watching YouTube videos. I have a question about the red lid on the barrel. How does that stay in place. From what I've seen it looks like it just slips on. Has anyone had it come off during operation? I would imagine if it came off and you weren't aware of it your slurry would dry out in a hurry. The reason I ask is when I had the HF vibratory tumbler the lid coming off was a major issue.
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richardh
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2016
Posts: 391
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Post by richardh on Aug 20, 2016 21:14:23 GMT -5
richardh, that is so heartbreaking when you have an otherwise beautiful rock, and for one reason or another, it's got a big crack in it, or it just won't take a polish. When I look at these rocks, like I'm sure almost everyone on the boards, I don't see it in its current state. I see it as it COULD be, and when that is ruined because of bruising or just because of mother nature, it really is heartbreaking. I don't overuse that word here, I truly see it as perfection lost, and it makes me sad. Each one of these is like a snowflake, and there will never be another one just like it. When I picked it up, something about it caught my eye, and it DESERVES to have its true beauty brought out. When it is destroyed, it sucks. It definitely is. I am a little discouraged today because some of the rocks that I was excited about have developed some pits and will need to go back to stage two or maybe even stage 1. I was getting excited as I expected to start them in the polish stage this afternoon. You are correct about seeing what the rock could be. I need to try to stop doing that. I guess they still can be what I envisioned, just a little smaller.
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richardh
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2016
Posts: 391
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Post by richardh on Aug 18, 2016 16:11:08 GMT -5
I removed the arm on my tile saw as it was also getting in my way. It was just two screws and made it much easier to use.
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richardh
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2016
Posts: 391
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Post by richardh on Aug 18, 2016 11:23:40 GMT -5
I tend to stay away from CL and Ebay after having issues with both of them, but I will keep an eye out around here for used equipment. I've seen so many posts on here suggesting a trim saw and just as many with people saying a tile saw is good enough. I have been using a tile saw and what I am seeing is that when I cut it is a pretty wide cut throwing away a lot of material. I recently wore out the blade that came with my saw and got a new thinner blade for around $25 and wow my experience is much better. The blade makes a big difference. Having said that I would guess a trim saw will be even better. As was mentioned earlier the tile saw makes a pretty big mess.
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richardh
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2016
Posts: 391
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Post by richardh on Aug 18, 2016 11:17:43 GMT -5
I really want to figure out what I am doing right/wrong with the rotary. I know it CAN be done, and I believe that if I can acquire the knowledge to rotary well, that if/when I get a vibe, I'll just be that much better. Plus, I figure if I'm making bush-league mistakes with a rotary, they may just be magnified with a vibe. Sure. I'm no expert, but for me, getting a good shine using a rotary meant sticking to fundamentals and understanding tumbling physics: - Ensuring hardness of tumbling material is relatively uniform. - Adequate space-filling, cushioning material; Minimize impact, maximize friction. - Lots of patience. Stage 4 can take longer than 7 days. Most folks stress the importance of eliminating contamination (coarser grit leftover from previous stages), which is a good rule of thumb. But I don't meticulously scrub to remove every particle of grit, and my batches turn out just fine. I have often scratched my head about the importance of getting the rocks perfectly clean before moving them to the next stage. I even did a crude experiment (definitely not conclusive) where I took a bunch of material (Brazilian agates) and ran half with just doing a thorough rinse and half doing a double wash in the tumbler with ivory soap and even individually scrubbed each rock with a toothbrush and wet rag and carried them through the process. In the end I couldn't tell which rock came from which group with my untrained eye. I think the reason for my results might be partially due to my making sure there weren't places for grit to get held up in my rocks. If there were pits or large cracks they did not leave the first stage. The second hypothesis I have is that I let the grit completely break down before moving to the next stage. What I mean is that my course grit started out at 46-70 but after three days the particle size was considerably smaller in my tumbler. After 5 days or so I was getting a finish on my rocks in the course stage that resembles what I get typically after three days in the 120-220 grit stage. So carrying material that had broken down for 5 days in the coarse stage wouldn't probably cause harm in the 120-220 stage because the residual grit that is carried over is already finer than what I am introducing to the next stage. Hypothetically this will be a bigger issue by the time you get to the polish stage. I think I was able to get away with rinse only there because I am using aluminum oxide 600 grit before going into the polish stage. It is my understanding that when this breaks down it more or less acts like tiny ceramic media. Anyway I just thought I would throw that out there to see if it makes sense to anyone.
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richardh
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2016
Posts: 391
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Post by richardh on Aug 18, 2016 10:53:39 GMT -5
I have a vibe on my wish list too... I have never used leather in the rotary but i I do use plastic pellets for the prepolish and polish cycles. i just wash the pellets good and reuse them just for the two cycles. I should clarify that each cycle has its own batch of pellets. then i use an Ivory soap bar to clean the stones when they are done. Still working on the patience though. by the time I get to polish I am so excited to see the stones come out that I get impatient and hurry it through. haha I once tried cutting up a paper towel into little 1/2" squares and burnishing with it and dish soap and it worked well for getting rid of the white polish in the tiny cracks.
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richardh
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2016
Posts: 391
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Post by richardh on Aug 18, 2016 10:48:42 GMT -5
You running obsidian with agates in polish? That is a very good question. This is a conglomeration of stuff that was either picked up out of my yard or purchased as "rough tumbling mix" online. It probably started out as four or more stage 1 barrels, and I picked out the ones that were ready for the next stage and put them together. If I have the wrong stuff with the wrong stuff, that might explain part of my problem. The agate in that picture was pulled out and put back for more shaping. It was actually probably the shiniest of all of them in terms of taking a polish. I do want to get a Lot-O, but I just bought a saw/grinder, and I need to finish putting that together and let the heat go down a bit with my lovely bride before I drop another two bills on something else that makes noise and takes up space. =) I really want to figure out what I am doing right/wrong with the rotary. I know it CAN be done, and I believe that if I can acquire the knowledge to rotary well, that if/when I get a vibe, I'll just be that much better. Plus, I figure if I'm making bush-league mistakes with a rotary, they may just be magnified with a vibe. Wax on, wax off... Paint the fence... Boy it feels like you are reading my mind. I bet I am making the same mistakes you are because my first batch looks just like yours. I think one of my initial problems was that I was mixing the wrong materials together (different hardnesses in the same batch) and the quality of my starting material wasn't up to snuff. A couple of forum members I think noticed that my starting material might not be very good and offered to send me some and I finally took one up on their offer and got some nice looking feed stock that is now in the rough stage. So far things are looking promising with that material. My other strategy was to do a batch with only one type of material in my second tumbler. It is all red jasper that I found and I have finally gotten to the point where I will start the polish stage this afternoon. One thing I have noticed about my jasper is that some of the material is just porous. I would get the stones to the point where they were perfectly smooth looking at the end of stage 1 only to find pits in some of them at the end of stage 2... I tried using ceramic media and later plastic beads to give a gentler tumble thinking the rocks were banging into each other. None of those efforts seemed to make much if any difference in my case. In my frustration I decided to take some of the problem rocks and cut them open with my tile saw. What I found was that most of the problem rocks had tiny cavities and in some cases cracks throughout. This means no matter how much I tumble them, they will never give me that "perfect" surface that I am dreaming of. When I saw this result a light went off in my head and I realized something that is probably very obvious to most of the people here. If I am picking up rocks from gravel roads that have had lots of hard impacts or from river beds I may not be getting top quality material, especially considering that I don't really know how to effectively select rocks. I am now starting to get pickier and when I see lots of pits or cracks I throw them back. I also purchased some agates because I kept reading that agates are easier to shine. I purchased some on Amazon.com for $5-8/lb and what I found was that this budget material is probably not of sufficient quality to get the results I am after. For example, I purchased some Brazilian agates for something like $5/lb. what I got was a bunch of tumbler sized rough rocks (3/4"- 1 1/2") that appear to have been through a pulvarizer. Most of them had deep cracks and the shapes were very irregular. I tumbled them for weeks and wore them down quite a bit using probably $20 worth of grit and still had those deep cracks and some very unappealing shapes. It was at that point that I started reading here and got the idea to dust off the tile saw that was gathering dust in the garage. I cut away a lot of those irregular protuberances from the agates and at least had better shapes but ultimately the cracks were still eating my lunch. My rock tumbling budget is spent for the next several months but I have decided that next time I purchase rough I will stick with the top quality rough and eventually buy a Lot-O. Buying the cheapest agates was a false economy. I ended up with what might be one or two rocks that I will be happy with. So after I do the math I ended up spending nearly $30/rock for a couple of small agates not to mention all the time I spent messing with them. Since my budget is very small I tend to be a big time bargain hunter but I think I will need to fight the urge to buy up the "close out" specials. Anyway, sorry for the rambling, your post just hit really close to home.
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richardh
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2016
Posts: 391
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Post by richardh on Aug 18, 2016 9:42:40 GMT -5
Wow, once again I am inspired by your excellent work. Those are some beautiful rocks and top drawer photos. I LOVE the shots of the Apache tears especially!
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richardh
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2016
Posts: 391
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Post by richardh on Aug 6, 2016 21:41:53 GMT -5
Thanks again everyone for the advice. Loud will definitely not work at my house. Thankfully the Raytech hadn't shipped yet so I was able to cancel my order without causing too much trouble. I guess I will just be saving up for a Lot-O.
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richardh
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2016
Posts: 391
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Post by richardh on Aug 5, 2016 17:36:42 GMT -5
I am a total greenhorn here but my rule of thumb for now is that if I can’t scratch it with an iron nail then it goes in to a “hard stones” batch. If I can scratch it with the nail I set it aside for later. I have had major headaches from rocks made of different materials so I tend to shy away from them for now.
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richardh
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2016
Posts: 391
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Post by richardh on Aug 4, 2016 16:41:17 GMT -5
Cool looking rocks, making me drool!
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richardh
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2016
Posts: 391
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Post by richardh on Aug 4, 2016 16:38:32 GMT -5
I am right there in the same boat as you and I wholeheartedly agree that there is some extremely useful information on these forums. I also blew my budget buying what I believe will be better tumbling material that the rocks I have been collecting around my house. I keep reading comments from so many people here who swear by vibratory tumblers and I am really interested in trying one out. I would really like to get a Lot-O but I am not going to have that much saved up for a while.
A member of this community suggested I check out the Raytech TV-5 as an affordable way to try vibratory tumblers when I had my issues with the HF machine. I did a bunch of research and ready reviews, watched videos… and it looks like it is a decent machine so I went ahead and ordered one.
As I understand it the vibratory tumbler won’t make the rocks any shinier but it should work a whole lot faster than the rotary tumblers. The shorter cycle time should mean that I can get more runs under my belt in less time so I can develop my technique more rapidly.
My plan is to use my two rotary tumblers to do nothing but the coarse stage and once I have built enough material that has completed stage 1, complete the rest of the process in the vibratory tumbler. I have purchased 5lbs of non-abrasive ceramic media that I think will allow me to run the vibratory tumbler without so many rocks so I am not waiting forever.
I am also really encouraged by the people here who do share their experience freely and without ego. It has made me feel much more comfortable sharing my experiences and asking questions. I am so glad I found this place.
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richardh
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2016
Posts: 391
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Post by richardh on Aug 4, 2016 13:07:26 GMT -5
I forgot to add that my HF vibratory tumbler worked for about 12 hours before it was destroyed and I did not use coarse grit in it. My first and only batch I ran in it was with 120-220 grit SiC.
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richardh
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2016
Posts: 391
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Post by richardh on Aug 4, 2016 13:05:16 GMT -5
Maybe you will have better luck with the HF vibratory tumbler than I did but I quickly destroyed mine. When I talked to the people at HF they told me that it wasn't really intended for rocks and were kind enough to give me a refund. I think you would have better luck with something else but of course my experience is limited to only one unit. I just ordered a Raytech TV-5 because the Lot-O was just out of my budget and Raytech does advertise the TV-5 as being a rock tumbler. Hopefully it will last a bit longer than the HF. My rotary tumbler is a 3lb HF and I have had good luck with it so far but from reading the boards here it sounds like vibratory tumblers are much more efficient.
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richardh
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2016
Posts: 391
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Post by richardh on Aug 2, 2016 12:49:48 GMT -5
I agree that desert jasper is really cool. I ordered some from Hypnotic Gems on Amazon.com and have had it in the tumbler for a while and it is starting to take shape but I don’t think any of it will be anywhere near as cool looking as yours when it is done. Guess I should have gone with the rock shed.
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richardh
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2016
Posts: 391
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Post by richardh on Aug 1, 2016 21:38:59 GMT -5
Another non-expert here, but your Sodalite is going to get ground up before your other stuff is done unless you carefully check for *all* the pieces you put in ... at least it happened to me.... Same here. I don’t quite understand why “tumbling mix” includes rocks with such a range of hardness. When I purchased a bag of “tumbling mix” I received something with pieces of quartz along with some jasper and some blue apatite and septarian. The apetite and septarian were ground to powder before I figured out what was going on. I think this sort of product would frequently be purchased by nubies who are just going to throw everything in the tumbler just as I did. I wish they would just put harder stones in so we greenhorns can have a little better chance at success. I know I was really bummed when some of the coolest looking rocks that I started out with were pulverized to rubble.
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richardh
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2016
Posts: 391
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Post by richardh on Aug 1, 2016 10:32:09 GMT -5
Richard, I do about 50/50 based on both weight and volume. I have both weighed and checked volume and find it is about equal. I tumble only shaped cabs or shaped but not domed preforms. I would think that if you are doing rough rock there is more tolerance but that is not my bag and I have very little experience in that area. It is important when doing cabs to check and sometimes add media. My uv-18 vibe definitely requires a periodic check on the slurry for an easy sliding motion. One can also tell by the sound once you know what you should be hearing during each cycle. Hope this helps. Thanks very much, that sounds like a good starting point for me. I am seeing the importance of keeping the hardness uniform and hope generous use of media will also help keep my rocks from damaging one another. I also hope to explore shaping of the rocks more so I have greater control over what comes out as a finished product. I rarely find that rough hammered rocks have a shape that I find appealing. So far my skill with the saw isn't great but that should improve with practice.
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richardh
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2016
Posts: 391
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Post by richardh on Jul 31, 2016 23:07:55 GMT -5
Richard, one other by product of ceramic media(AlO) is that it also breaks down and adds to the final polish. I do mostly cabs and a few flats and would never start the uv-18 without the proper amount of filler. How do you determine the proper amount?
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richardh
spending too much on rocks
Member since June 2016
Posts: 391
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Post by richardh on Jul 31, 2016 14:59:36 GMT -5
Richard, even though you can't tumble some material doesn't mean you can't finish the special pieces by hand. I vibe tumble but some material requires hand work and epoxies to finish the way I like them. I collected wood around College Station in the mid 60"s and didn't find much that had color. Some of the wood from New Mexico and further west will have great color but my main thought was to have you tumble something that was readily available and be successful. You are not the first to suggest alternative polishing methods. I plan to explore some of the options. I have purchased some polishing compound and a buffing wheel for my grinder and will try it out as soon as my dust mask arrives. I was advised to be sure to wear a mask so I ended up ordering a proper one rather than the cheap paper ones I picked up at Home Depot. Thanks very much for the suggestion.
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