elementary
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Post by elementary on Jan 31, 2010 13:11:49 GMT -5
Creating America Agate Index!!!!!We are going to need your help. Just shy of a week ago a few people here began talking about how there may be some good books out there on Agates, but there is no encompassing American Agate database/book where we can go and try to match or identify our agate/jasper material. We decided that this project, admittedly huge, would be a good one to do ourselves, as members of RTH. The below thread is the discussion as it's been ongoing. forum.rocktumblinghobby.com/index.cgi?board=rocksidlib&action=display&thread=35686It seemed smart to go slowly, working initially on a single state, in order to limit mistakes and keep the project manageable. Utah was chosen. (See related Thread) The idea is to have several images showing what typical specimens from each locality look like so we can compare our unknown specimens with examples of famous and not-so-well known locations. The strength of this project is that there are RTH members everywhere at every level of this hobby. Our database will be produced from images provided by you (and by various outside sources that will be contacted.) Because every image used will be in the public domain, it should be open to sharing to anyone who wants it. Because it's rockhounds putting it together, it should be tailored to our needs, and not a publisher's desire. The goal of this project is not to create an online museum, so you won't see multiple pictures of similar stones unless it is to show variations of the material, nor is it a field guild with directions to where these specimens can be found. There will be an index to aid finding specific examples by name or location. Ultimately (at present) the idea is that there will be a series of pdf files available through a posted link where the ongoing databases can be downloaded. Each file would encompass a different region of the United States. There would be no cost involved to anyone. The idea is to create a mutually generated database for all our benefit - and for those outside the group here. The format/layout of these is still to be finalized. If you have any suggestions about what you would want to see in this kind of database, please post them here. We look forward to working together to make this database a success. It's a very ambitious project, so don't look for a completion anytime soon, but we hope everyone has fun helping compile it. (Utah will be the first state to be worked on - and that thread will be set up a little later day.) Lowell
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elementary
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Post by elementary on Jan 31, 2010 12:29:30 GMT -5
Fran,
They're small beach rocks from Cambria/San Simeon California. I'm thinking chert and related material. Every time my wife and I go up the coast, I grab a big zip lock bag full and use them for small fill in my tumbles. I'd love to use little lakers, but we don't have those here. But I have to say: Green (to paraphrase Gordon Gecko of Wall Street) is good.
Lowell
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elementary
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Post by elementary on Jan 31, 2010 4:10:13 GMT -5
Woody, Were lapidaries ever sane?
beef Great piece of shiny stuff you got there! Good luck with your project!
Lowell
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elementary
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Post by elementary on Jan 31, 2010 4:07:03 GMT -5
First time I looked at these pictures, I thought the stump was awesome and beautiful.
Then someone had to go say that there were eyes starin' back at me.
Now that's all I see.
The stump is still awesome, but now it's kinda creepy.
Lowell
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elementary
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Post by elementary on Jan 31, 2010 4:00:54 GMT -5
Mel, Thanks for the advice! It's been a while and I always get antsy at the end...
ejs The corner shot is of some brazilian agate. I have quite a few slabs and every now and again, when I need some more agate for the tumbler, I pop one and drop it in. I do have carnelian, but I'm waiting a batch or two before I run it.
jo I don't do wrapping. I keep a small portion of my tumbles for samples of each type. Most either go to the children's booth for our club's Gem/Mineral show or are given out to my 6th grade classes for reading, birthdays, and extra work. The other thing I do is go to the local craft store, buy bead boxes, and fill each lil section with different stones (polished, rough, fossil, crystal) and label each type. These I then give away at school, to the neighborhood kids, or to people who have kids. One day I'll learn to make jewelry. My wife, I think, would like that.
Lowell
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elementary
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Post by elementary on Jan 30, 2010 21:52:51 GMT -5
Steve, I've been trying to come across anything else on line about the San Rafael Swell and rock hunting - especially in light of your posting. Found not a hint of anything until this posting: www.rockhounds.com/rocknet/archive/messages/5696.shtml"The other (geode) found approximately 400 miles away, near the san rafael swell.and the outside matrix is a really hard red bumpy agate like texture." Sound vaguely familiar? There is no picture so can't say for certain yours is from his spot - but I thought this would interest you a bit. Lowell
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elementary
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Post by elementary on Jan 30, 2010 17:25:02 GMT -5
Have a peak. Hope you like. Tried to remember what I was doing what back then. Chose stones I wouldn't mind messing up on. ran Multiple weeks 60/90 120/220 1 week 400 1 week 600 1 week Cer Oxide 9 days in smaller batch not as shiny as I have got in the past. next batch is 2nd half of same 600 run. adding alum oxide prepolish run to see what the change is thinking I should have run longer in polish phase, but I was impatient... General batch Lavic and North Cady Jaspers Closer Views
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elementary
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Post by elementary on Jan 30, 2010 16:50:18 GMT -5
Here's the latest group of specimens I've finished up. Mexican Piece (from Mel's backyard) (I tried to crop them or reduce the size, but the colors muted a bit - so you get HUGE photos.) I thought this was going to be carnelian when I cut it, but it possessed this central yellow section. Does carnelian ever have this, or is this from elsewhere? Plume agate from Northern Cady's (self-collected). The bright light washed out some of the detail in the plumes. The smallest red nodule (Mexican - bought whole at a show) didn't come out well in the shot I took of it - so no smaller image. Enjoy, Lowell
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elementary
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Post by elementary on Jan 30, 2010 16:23:22 GMT -5
Steve,
It's my understanding that what is needed is a identification library, a place where images of both common and not so common material can be researched - so any item where the basic location is known would be excellent for it. (Your nodule and my other San Rafael type material are the perfect example of why such a publication of images is needed - since nothing seems to exist that lists them. In fact, this collection would be worthless for serious collectors if it didn't include lesser known locations.)
As a side note, just thinking, I also don't see it as a field collecting tool - so exact coordinates and road directions would be beyond its scope. (I think what is needed is a town or geological landmark to provide a general area.)
I have a couple samples of copralites. Are there wide variations in how they look between locations? I've only begun looking into them. (Thought again - it might be worthwhile somewhere along the line to show a variety of copralites together regardless of location to help id specimens...maybe a typing/definition glossary ...but that'll be later.
Can't wait to see what you have up your sleeve!
Lowell
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elementary
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Post by elementary on Jan 30, 2010 11:00:13 GMT -5
NorthShoreRocks, Thank you very much for the input! Yes, PDF is my plan. It's the form I use to distribute the newsletters for my club. And I am a Mac user. As for the file distribution, I've been researching (don't know if you saw the earlier post or not) a place where the files can be stored and then linked into RTH on a post. Click on the link - get the file dropped right into your own computer. Each time I update the file, I set up a new link to it on RTH and you can update your records. (I've never done that before, but I've never posted pictures anywhere before joining this site, so I'm learning.) It sounds like you've had more experience putting together catalogs before, so if I need to, may I drop a line your way for advice? Mel, I can drag/copy/drop most any picture I come across on this site or others. It gives me a jpg but the imagelink is removed and I then have access to it. (Which reminds me - yes, I could borrow photos from this site and then reload them into photobucket. It would be done through this conversion. Like how people copied their fun Christmas images - such as the few I saw you have - and then posted those on Photobucket.) See: HEY LOOK AT THIS NEW PIECE OF WOOD MEL FOUND! (This image now rests in my photobucket as a sample - boy, wish I could really point/click and copy for myself some of your real material - and some of SteveHolmes little Mexican nodules, and Rockmanken's knives and... ah to dream) And regarding photos - I am hoping to be organized enough to keep track of where/who the photos came from so credit can be provided. I don't even need them posted here to do it. If people have photobucket sites, all they need to do is label the specimens there, let me know they are ready, and then I can copy them out. Saves the time and formality of posting pictures to RTH - though we would still want you or others to review the material to make your own comments and for accuracy. (I will say, for my own self collected material and many of the most famous localities, I got a good eye, but I will back off from claiming I have deep identification abilities, especially for the level of work this project is going to require.) Side note: For additional material, I want to email certain people out there who don't post here to see if I can get sample photos of material I haven't seen here - such as that 'new' black and white bear canyon agate from montana. Local collecting clubs and personal sites would aid us for regional material, I am thinking. Ah, I'm excited at this! Let me know if we want to get the ball rolling! Do you feel comfortable enough to begin this long term project? - Oh and let's just start with Utah to honor Steve's initial posting that led to this discussion. Thanks Lowell
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elementary
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Post by elementary on Jan 30, 2010 10:15:45 GMT -5
Amazing stuff!
It looks like frozen fire.
I'm waiting to see what your friend brings over next. Those estate sales could have anything!
Lowell
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elementary
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Post by elementary on Jan 30, 2010 10:12:53 GMT -5
I have to say, that must have been a very cool piece to work with!
Excellent job!
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elementary
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Post by elementary on Jan 28, 2010 23:00:52 GMT -5
Mel, I have a lot of optimism for this! I can't wait to begin testing ideas to see what is the most user friendly.
Thoughts- I believe we have to go into this realizing that this will be a 'living' document - constantly being updated and revised. With this in mind, the size of the project dictates that we take slow steps and look to short term goals leading up to the final goal. In my mind, we work on a state, or material from a state (such as wood from California), and do the best we can gathering material for that topic. Then, once that comes in, we put out another request while the previously acquired images are sorted, valued, and decided upon. (I do believe we will need multiple specimens for each locality just because of the variety (as Mel mentions regarding the Cady Mtns)).
Files also are better than a thread because it means you are not restricted to being on-line to refer to it, it's updated, filtered by several reviewers, and posted as a PDF file. It is also can be updated and reposted so changes are monitored.
As for format, I do like the idea of location driving the search and then having a general excel database or index that would contain all the Retail Names and provide page numbers and states where the material originated. If desired, it could include a short checklist of characteristics.
I agree that this would be a huge project - so my thought is that we choose a state like Utah - which has a wide variety of material, but wouldn't bury us like California or Texas - and do a sample run on how the material would look and test what works and what doesn't. Once we like how Utah works, then we expand slowly, state by state. That way we control the information and the information doesn't control us. We can test a few different formats and get feedback. We can see how it appears on a thread, and also, I can take any images and produce a sample of how the file contents would look like.
Oh, not that I want this, but do we want criteria on the photos - such as having something to show scale such as a coin or ruler? I feel that would be too restrictive to all the existing photos people already have, but I wanted to ask.
So, let's start simple and slow, so mistakes won't be a bear to fix.
Thanks, Lowell
Woody, It's amazing what experience will teach you. I have some carnelian filled t-eggs from oregon, but I have little clue as to their origin as I have not come across exact matches to their details. I'm pretty good at the Hauser Bed location as I've been there a bunch, and I'm getting better at pegging general localities, but boy, Oregon is confusing...especially with the appearance of all these little mine specimens.
Chuck, An index is mandatory for this. I've done them for other projects I've been apart of, which is why it doesn't scare me to compile the files. It's the identification i'd like to see a few people involved with. (Thanks for the :2cents: )
Lowell
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elementary
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Post by elementary on Jan 28, 2010 1:40:11 GMT -5
California was hit hard last week with storms. One morning last week, the president of our club was called by the rangers in the park across the street from the house we rent for our museum and workshop. They said a tree fell on our building. One of our members went out there and found that, though branches damaged some of the roofing tiles and ripped the power box off the wall, we were very lucky. As Maxwell Smart many times said: Missed it by ( ) that much...
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elementary
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Post by elementary on Jan 28, 2010 1:31:39 GMT -5
Mel, I'm no computer genius either. Photobucket, though, probably wouldn't be the best method. Your point about transferring photos sounds right. Truthfully, I think a document that is downloadable would be the easiest method both both creating and distributing. In researching a place where files can be shared and uploaded, I found this. www.4shared.com/faq.jsp#q9I find I can store 10 GB worth of material, in files that can reach 200 MB in size. My meager math skills tell me that could give us 50 200 MB files. It says:"Your files can be shared with anyone, including non registered users. As soon as you upload your files on 4shared you will be able to share your file with others using an access link. You can email the link, place it on your web page, or publish it on forums or blogs. " It sounds like what we need. & This is just one free file sharing site out there, and there are several. If I am thinking this through - An editor/producer compiles the index document from the shared images (which should be reviewed for accuracy), saves it to this site, then posts a link on RTH to download the file to anyone - including non-registered people. These files would be marked with a date of last their last update so people can make sure they have the latest version. Files are named by state. (I know this produces lots of files, but I don't see an easier method.) Contents are organized by site. Index in back of each file for locating material known by different names. If we want to get this project going, hypothetically we can begin acquiring images tomorrow. We just need to discuss how we want to present to material (information of specimen/site), what we focus on first, and who we want to edit/produce the documents. I would love to take on the job (if you trust me). I'm editing the Ventura Gem and Mineral Newsletter presently, and have a program that would create a viable product. Thoughts? Thanks Lowell
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elementary
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Post by elementary on Jan 27, 2010 22:02:17 GMT -5
I've been thinking about this for a while, and I'm excited that we might be able to do it! There are two ways of going about this (that I've thought of - someone might have a better idea.) No matter what, we would need a guarantee by the image provider that they have rights to that photo. I use a ton of copywritten material for personal needs, but what we are considering has to be usable by the public. The first way to do this is Photobucket Accounts by State with a moderator(s) for each account, or one moderator for all accounts, with a backup in case something happens to the main person. The material is posted here, on this site, for initial review or commentary, then the moderator takes and places it into the Photobucket. There could be a thread for each state and an initial request for identifiable material. (We can also send requests to various websites and online dealers for permission to use some of their photos). Once a piece is accepted and added to the directory, Photobucket would also be great because people could post their comments regarding each piece - namely additional information rather than (great piece!) etc. The only problem I see with this is possible future cost if the size of the account gets too large - plus the concern of how we organize it should be discussed (alphabetical by location would seem to be best, as some material is known by multiple names). The second way is to create a website (or find someone here, nudge nudge) who would be able to provide a link where a PDF file could be downloaded - again by either state or material (for example, cycads/ferns cross state lines so those could each have their own file). You would need a person to create the file for a state's material and provide it to the webmaster. I would think that files would be updated and replaced at regular intervals so new information can be added. The issue here is the amount of files needed. One per state (oregon would probably need to be split between t-eggs and agate/jasper sites) adds up fairly quickly. International considerations (I think) would be a secondary concern. (It's great that recently the world has been so opened up and material from every corner of the globe is being found - but that is a HUGE amount of data to record - and be less relevant to the goals of this project. I like the idea of USA/Canada and possibly Mexico - especially the old stuff that might not be as available now. A few initial resources (well known) www.agateswithinclusions.com/index.htmlwww.achate.at/www.sailorenergy.net/Minerals/MineralMain.html(Dwarves' earth treasures-excellent site.) www.worldofjaspers.com/index.htmlwww.arizonaagate.com/homewww.thundereggs.co.uk/usindex.htmlwww.agate-nodule.com/index.htmThere's more, but these are more private collections posted on the web than set up as reference material. They're great, but I will post most of them later. What is interesting is that a number of Asian collections have appeared, and Europe is definitely posting images. Two asian below: chomuga.web.fc2.com/index.htmlwww.lithos-graphics.com/rocks/agate-index.htmlI hope I've increased your bookmark page.
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elementary
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Post by elementary on Jan 26, 2010 22:24:41 GMT -5
I believe I read somewhere (his Geodes book, I believe) that Brad Cross is putting together an American Book on agates. That would be nice, but I would expect it to be still limited in scope, unless it reached close to the Zenz book size - as there is so much material, as you say.
Well, now I'm thinking that I should start a new thread on online websites that might help ID material - I have a whole page of bookmarks - some with limited use, and some that are equivalent to online museums. (Most of the better sites are well-known, but might as well put them all in one place.)
What I've done myself (besides adding to the four binders you left behind) is scour the internet for images of agates/jaspers from anywhere I can find - seller's websites, personal collections, professional institutions, etc. I save the images into files based on either country or state with the location listed alphabetically. The files are getting huge, but I spend an hour or more a week just on this project alone. I feel like I am making an American based version of Zenz's book. I 'steal' from anyone I can. (I added some pigeon blood agate from your(Steve's) Website yesterday while researching that stuff.) The problem is that I borrow the images from these sites without permission (not that I'd ever sell or distribute the material) so sharing with others is out. The other problem is that I constantly have to double check a person's stated location when I think they might be wrong. Oregon thundereggs are BRUTAL at times. So many websites with various levels of information.
I'd love to see this forum used to create a database built from images from our collections. Think anybody would want to contribute to a project like this?
Lowell
And Steve, thank you for your kind words, but I must post a disclaimer that I am nowhere near Mel in aptitude, experience, (and if anybody has missed it) generosity. I'm just glad you allowed me to ramble on your dime, and if anybody besides me benefited, then I'm happy. (Love your work and always eager to open your posts when I see them.)
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elementary
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Post by elementary on Jan 26, 2010 3:27:46 GMT -5
Thanks Mel, for the information. If I haven't said it officially, I'm in awe of your knowledge. BUT...It drives me nuts that there's not a better illustrated book for American Agates. The German Agate books are pretty, but as you've said in the past, weak when it comes to the American localities. What I'd love is for someone to put together a downloadable file(or files separated by state) with photos and basic locality information (general location/not hunting guide) so we, as purchasers/inheritors/etc, can identify what we come across. Much of the main agate/jasper locations are well-documented, but when you get to these secondary locales such as the San Rafael region, there's nothing illustrated on the web. The closest image I've found (this relates to your nodule, Steve) is from this website: agateworld.co.uk/worldagates.htmlIt shows the same pattern of outer red/darker band/inside red pattern that your (Steve's) nodule possesses, except in different thicknesses and the central formation is different. It's probably not related, but it shows how limited our research material is. Anyways, For those interested: The Agate Lexicon information: for San Rafael Agate/Nodules (2502-2504) snr.unl.edu/data/geologysoils/agates/AgateLexicon.asp?Name=S(lists Lapidary Journal Vol 6 no. 6 as a info source) Cisci Agates (745) snr.unl.edu/data/geologysoils/agates/AgateLexicon.asp?Name=CHenry Mountain (1304-1305) snr.unl.edu/data/geologysoils/agates/AgateLexicon.asp?Name=HSteve, I apologize. I feel like I hijacked your thread. Lowell
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elementary
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Post by elementary on Jan 25, 2010 23:08:38 GMT -5
Very nice!
I especially like the 2nd morgan hill!
Keep em coming!
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elementary
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Post by elementary on Jan 25, 2010 23:03:47 GMT -5
88pathoffroad
That's some sweet lookin' stuff!
Is that the extent of the size? Have any other pictures? Larger specimens? Post Post POST!!!!
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