Best vibratory flat lap?

[afterburnt]

I can no longer stand for hours at my flat lap. I need a "set it and forget it" Vibratory lap. Any recommendations on a $500 or so machine?

Thanks

[afterburnt]

I should have said that it will be closer to a grand for any new one.

[afterburnt]

This?

www.lapidarymachines.com/vibratory_lapping_machines.shtml

[AzRockGeek]

These are suppose to be the best.  Keep an eye on the used market, they show up.

[afterburnt]

Is anyone familiar with this shop?

www.4facets.com/flat_lap.html#20

[amygdule]

Dec 3, 2022 16:45:05 GMT -5 afterburnt said:

Is anyone familiar with this shop?

www.4facets.com/flat_lap.html#20

Facets doesn't exist anymore. As far as I know, Wesley's Trading Post took over their lapidary business.
I've never been in there and I don't know what they have.

[afterburnt]

After a few calls and visits, the consensus seems to be that Lortone Laps no longer exist.

[Mel (PrettyGritty)]

Dec 7, 2022 11:06:57 GMT -5 afterburnt said:

After a few calls and visits, the consensus seems to be that Lortone Laps no longer exist.

There are seemingly plenty of used ones out there if you look.  I say this since I've managed to get two LS-15s in the last year for under $500, just needed the balls & polishing pads replaced.  Lapidary isn't super popular here so I was really surprised. 

[rmf]

Jan 21, 2023 18:57:13 GMT -5 Mel (PrettyGritty) said:

Dec 7, 2022 11:06:57 GMT -5 afterburnt said:

After a few calls and visits, the consensus seems to be that Lortone Laps no longer exist.

There are seemingly plenty of used ones out there if you look.  I say this since I've managed to get two LS-15s in the last year for under $500, just needed the balls & polishing pads replaced.  Lapidary isn't super popular here so I was really surprised. 

I had at one time two LS-20s and if you over load them the ball go flat then they will not vib correctly.   Lortone was out of replacements and I found the same size super balls at Dollar Tree.   they work if you need replacements.

[HankRocks]

Jan 21, 2023 21:14:10 GMT -5 rmf said:

Jan 21, 2023 18:57:13 GMT -5 Mel (PrettyGritty) said:

There are seemingly plenty of used ones out there if you look.  I say this since I've managed to get two LS-15s in the last year for under $500, just needed the balls & polishing pads replaced.  Lapidary isn't super popular here so I was really surprised. 

I had at one time two LS-20s and if you over load them the ball go flat then they will not vib correctly.   Lortone was out of replacements and I found the same size super balls at Dollar Tree.   they work if you need replacements.

Same here, found super balls at the one of the $ stores 4 or 5 years ago and they are still on the machine. The issue I have with the Vib laps is that eventually the pans get dished. Not by much and generally on smaller pieces there's no issue, on the larger pieces, say 5 to 6 inches and more the center of the piece does not polish well. Once the grinding wear get's past the thin hardened Aluminum surface the wear goes faster and naturally more wear in the center of the pan. Working on re-surfacing one test pan, hope to have a report in a couple weeks.

[Mel (PrettyGritty)]

Haha, one of my machines actually had old squash balls in place of the Lortone ones! It was no big deal to replace them with "official" ones since I was already ordering from Kingsley and they were in stock.

The pans on these two seem fairly even but it never occurred to me that they could dish out like that.

[HankRocks]

Jan 21, 2023 22:04:21 GMT -5 Mel (PrettyGritty) said:

Haha, one of my machines actually had old squash balls in place of the Lortone ones! It was no big deal to replace them with "official" ones since I was already ordering from Kingsley and they were in stock.

The pans on these two seem fairly even but it never occurred to me that they could dish out like that.

If you have a machine grade straight edge, lay it across the bottom of the pan. You should be able to see that the center is dished out. A .01 of an inch makes a big difference on the center of the rock on larger pieces. I switched to using an old Garden hose as the rim bumper guard for the last 6 or 7 months. The area adjacent to the rim of the pan protected by the bumper guard is noticeably higher than the rest of the pan, maybe a 1/32 of an inch or more. That's a good indication that the hardened surface of the aluminum has been ground away and that the softer aluminum is grinding away at a faster rate.

I wondered why they don't make the pans out of steel until I realized the weight of a 20" steel pan would be 3 times that of an aluminum pan.

Going to try using an 1/8 stainless steel plate cut and fit for the pan as the new bottom. Attaching will be the issue however the research department is working with manufacturing group to come up with a solution. In theory the stainless steel will have much greater wear resistance than the hardened aluminum.

[herb]

Jan 21, 2023 21:43:58 GMT -5 HankRocks said:

The issue I have with the Vib laps is that eventually the pans get dished. Not by much and generally on smaller pieces there's no issue, on the larger pieces, say 5 to 6 inches and more the center of the piece does not polish well. Once the grinding wear get's past the thin hardened Aluminum surface the wear goes faster and naturally more wear in the center of the pan. Working on re-surfacing one test pan, hope to have a report in a couple weeks.

I know little about metal hardening, but I don't think just the surface is hardened. The bottom of the pans aren't all that thick and I think it would be difficult to just heat up the surface to the right temp before quenching.

Regarding resurfacing the pans, I have my 15 inch pans resurfaced a few years ago. The main one I use probably has over 1000 hour of use at the various grits and is still in good shape. There is a little bit of dishing, but nowhere close to what it was before I had it resurfaced.

In my experience, look for a small machine shop to do the resurfacing. The larger places I called wanted quite a bit to resurface them because they really aren't interested in doing such a small job. The small shop I eventually found charged $125 to resurface two 15 inch pans and a 10 inch pan.

[herb]

Jan 22, 2023 8:26:29 GMT -5 HankRocks said:

Going to try using an 1/8 stainless steel plate cut and fit for the pan as the new bottom. Attaching will be the issue however the research department is working with manufacturing group to come up with a solution. In theory the stainless steel will have much greater wear resistance than the hardened aluminum.

My resurfaced pans can be resurfaced at least 1 and maybe 2 more times. My plan for when they cant be resurfaced again is also to put in a metal disk. Someone here years ago recommended a specific kind of aluminum that is very durable, but I couldn't find the thread. I wrote it down at the time but my filing system leaves a bit to be desired but I'll try finding it. I suppose stainless steel would work just as well, but be heavier. What ever metal is used, it definitely shouldn't be something that can rust. Otherwise you'd risk having the rocks get stained.

My plan is to have the disk slightly smaller than the bottom of the pan and then caulk around the perimeter to hold it in place. Maybe put a layer of paperboard or rubber underneath so the pan and the disk don't "glue" together over time. The plastic tubing bumper would protect the caulk from getting worn and the caulk would hold the disk in place and prevent water and grit from getting lost underneath the disk. I'm a little concerned about grit getting embedded in the caulk, but giving the pan a good scrubbing before moving on the the next grit should get most of it and the bumper will help keep the rocks from rubbing against and embedded grit.

When the disk is too worn and needs to be replaced, hopefully removing the caulk would be fairly easy and the old disk will be able to be pried out and replaced with a new one.

I haven't decided between using 1/4 inch thick that just gets replaced, or 1/2 inch thick that can be resurface. When I looked into it a few years ago I seem to remember that the guaranteed flatness of the plate stock isn't all that flat and I was concerned I'd need to get it machined flat to being with. Also for cutting metal the only things I have is a hand held jig saw and a hand held reciprocating saw, neither of which would be a great choice for cutting a circle out of 1/4 or 1/2 inch hardened metal, so I'd probably have to have a shop do it and while they were at it they could machine the disk flat.

[HankRocks]

Jan 22, 2023 13:19:07 GMT -5 herb said:

Jan 21, 2023 21:43:58 GMT -5 HankRocks said:

The issue I have with the Vib laps is that eventually the pans get dished. Not by much and generally on smaller pieces there's no issue, on the larger pieces, say 5 to 6 inches and more the center of the piece does not polish well. Once the grinding wear get's past the thin hardened Aluminum surface the wear goes faster and naturally more wear in the center of the pan. Working on re-surfacing one test pan, hope to have a report in a couple weeks.

I know little about metal hardening, but I don't think just the surface is hardened. The bottom of the pans aren't all that thick and I think it would be difficult to just heat up the surface to the right temp before quenching.

Regarding resurfacing the pans, I have my 15 inch pans resurfaced a few years ago. The main one I use probably has over 1000 hour of use at the various grits and is still in good shape. There is a little bit of dishing, but nowhere close to what it was before I had it resurfaced.

In my experience, look for a small machine shop to do the resurfacing. The larger places I called wanted quite a bit to resurface them because they really aren't interested in doing such a small job. The small shop I eventually found charged $125 to resurface two 15 inch pans and a 10 inch pan.

The 20" pan on my Vib Lap are Aluminum or more accurately, Anodized  Aluminum. Anodizing Aluminum is an electrochemical process that converts the outside surface of the Aluminum to Aluminum Oxide a very hard, scratch resistance surface. The Machine Shop owner said that the bottom of my pans were probably too thin to be milled flat and then maintain structural integrity. In addition the pan would need to go thru the Anodization process to harden the new surface. He said a Stainless Steel plate was the way to go. 

The owner showed me some very detailed machine work on some Aluminum blocks his company does for down-hole equipment. After machining the pieces are sent out to be anodized to harden the fresh exposed surfaces.

Hope to hear this week that I can go pick up the new steel plate.

[Mel (PrettyGritty)]

Jan 22, 2023 8:26:29 GMT -5 HankRocks said:

I wondered why they don't make the pans out of steel until I realized the weight of a 20" steel pan would be 3 times that of an aluminum pan.

Going to try using an 1/8 stainless steel plate cut and fit for the pan as the new bottom. Attaching will be the issue however the research department is working with manufacturing group to come up with a solution. In theory the stainless steel will have much greater wear resistance than the hardened aluminum.

After reading this thread yesterday, I went and spent some time in my shop and took a good look at the newer (to me) of the machines.  I don't think the new one's ever done more than a couple of slabs, if that.  The other one though....it's seem some things, no major dishing there either though.  

As for retrofitting the bottom, I don't see why you couldn't caulk your steel plate into the aluminum frame with a good silicone caulk, and then get a tight fitting bumper in place to shield it.  Love the idea of using garden hose, btw.   Caulk is cheap, just replace it when it gets too embedded with grit and since you'd have the bumper ring in place, contaminated caulk wouldn't be a worry either. 

I'm going to have to ask around about getting aluminum anodized.  I have lots of aluminum scrap and a small foundry project I've been working on; wonder if I could cast another pan.  Likely not but it's fun to dream. 

Keep us posted on how your new plate works, I'm really interested to see. 

[afterburnt]

But where can I get a job pressing license plates?

[Rockoonz]

Lortone has discontinued the vib laps now? The rubber mill I retired from made the molded links for their redeveloped machine, that's how I met the owner, grandson of the original owner. Got to meet with him while we settled on an elastomer that bounced "just right". Seems like things from China, both viral and manufactured, really devastated that company, very sad since the people there were fantastic.

[liveoak]

Jan 24, 2023 12:52:03 GMT -5 Mel (PrettyGritty) said:

I'm going to have to ask around about getting aluminum anodized.  I have lots of aluminum scrap and a small foundry project I've been working on; wonder if I could cast another pan.  Likely not but it's fun to dream. 

I've had good luck anodizing things myself.

Anodizing is usually done with sulfuric acid (battery acid) but I found a guy that figured out how to do it without the harsh acid.

 

I started out doing small aluminum jewelry pieces, but when we needed a motor mount for our skiff I did that as well.

Not sure if you're game but here's where I found the info. Works well.

Anodizing and dying aluminum without battery acid

Patty

[Mel (PrettyGritty)]

Jan 25, 2023 17:41:04 GMT -5 afterburnt said:

But where can I get a job pressing license plates?

Used to be you got to break rocks instead of pressing license plates.  You still get 3 squares and a cot but it's a bit of a long term commitment.  Unlikely to get a roommate who'd be into lapidary either.