Saskrock
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Post by Saskrock on Mar 17, 2008 2:11:56 GMT -5
the hill billy flat lap made me wonder if I could make a hill billy faceter. Basicly my idea was to make a hexagon, octagon or other polygon out of plywood then attach a dop stick to the center of it. I am thinking that once you have a stone attached to the dop you could put a flat side of the polygon on a horizontal surface and tilt the stone into the lap, cut off until the center of the stone is reached then turn and make another facet. Like this. I know you would not be able to cut to measured angles and it would be pure guess work to use. but on the other hand the only thing I would have to facet would be some quartz or montana agate with no inclusions. So I would be just playing anyhow. What does everybody think?
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Post by Jack ( Yorkshire) on Mar 17, 2008 3:37:25 GMT -5
Hi I think this has been used before, as a ancient system !
Others will give you a better Idea.
im Interested also
Jack Yorkshire UK
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lapidopterix
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since March 2008
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Post by lapidopterix on Mar 17, 2008 4:10:54 GMT -5
I believe that some Asian cutters use a board with holes drilled in it at different angles to do this. You could cut wedges of the various angles needed for whatever pattern you were doing. Then use the wedges to hold a board at the various angles under a drill press. You could then mount the board above the lap somehow and using dopsticks of the correct length facet the stone. I don't know anything about faceting but I think that this would at least give you a crude version of it.
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Post by johnjsgems on Mar 17, 2008 8:22:32 GMT -5
It might work for opaque stones but I don't think you would get the right refraction without precise angles. Without precise angles all you cut are flat spots. You won't get the sparkle.
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SirRoxalot
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Member since October 2003
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Post by SirRoxalot on Mar 17, 2008 11:24:28 GMT -5
Basic faceting is done with a hand-held unit that grips the stone and allows it to be turned to cut the basic facets, with the grinding done by hand on glass and grit or waterproof sandpaper. Very low tech and torturously slow, if you can build a perfectly flat flat lap that would speed it up. Good on glass, makes pretty stones if you can stand the time it takes and the horrible screeching noise of the grinding process.
You'll never hear "quality faceting" and "hillbilly" in the same sentence... it's a precise business with very tolerances. You need to grind and then polish 50+ tiny facets, and you need to do it with perfect precision; your stops have to be repeatable... perfectly repeatable, or you screw up the angle and every angle affects every other angle, screw up one and you get to redo them all. This is why good faceting machines start at a few grand and the best are five.
Sure native cut stones are produced by the ton, literally a hand, a stone, and a grinding wheel, and they look pretty enough, but if you want to cut perfect stones from good rough, get a proper faceting unit.
SirRoxalot
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Post by akansan on Mar 17, 2008 17:48:15 GMT -5
Doc's mentioned a using tinker toys to create a faceter before - you know, the round circle things with evenly spaced holes in them? You might dig through the archives a bit to see if you can pull that up with more detail...
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Saskrock
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Post by Saskrock on Mar 17, 2008 19:44:39 GMT -5
Thanks for the suggestions, like I said I'm just playing. Maybe it would make me want to upgrade. Although I'm not sure I can afford a proper faceter. basicly I was thinking it would be like a jampeg but easier to hold the stone straight.
It would not be perfect but am I wrong in thinking that I could come close to the proper angles by varying the dop stick length? By close I mean if I came up with something nearing the quality of a native cut stone, I would be more than happy.
Once again thanks for any help.
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Rockygibraltar
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Post by Rockygibraltar on Mar 17, 2008 19:54:32 GMT -5
I think one could have a heck of a good time with your idea. There is a bunch of materials around that don't require high precision but look great with some geometric shaping.
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Post by Jack ( Yorkshire) on Mar 18, 2008 4:17:55 GMT -5
Hi Scott, Hears a link of a " Jamb peg" faceting machine kit www.thegemconnection.com/cjpkit.htm#cjpkit2It was taken from the below link scroll down and you will see a section on home made stuff tomaszewski.net/Kreigh/Minerals/Homemade.shtmlThis is a great site I have passed this on to many as for the results ? I have never made this piece of equipment I dont know if others have I knew there was a cheaper way But as other people above have said Faceting is a very highly skilled and high Maths and geomentry as you can read in any book on Faceting But like you I would like a simple system just for the enjoyment . Jack Yorkshire UK
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Saskrock
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Post by Saskrock on Mar 18, 2008 9:54:18 GMT -5
Thanks for the links Jack. The problem I see with the whole jam peg system is the lack of something to keep you cutting a facet straight. Would it not be very easy to end up with a rounded facet? I'm not positive on this having never seen/used one but it looks like it would take huge amounts of practice. The holder that keeps you stick at the proper angle is a good idea. I think if I make the stick on the polygon I had in mind slide through the center with a set screw to hold it in place then I would be able to adjust the angle that way. Then hopefully the flat side of the polygon would eliminate rotation. This whole conversation is probably making the people who are really into faceting cringe. Its the CE tumbler of faceting. Did you notice the link off of tomaszewski for the vibe tumbler? I just saw it. www.speedsoft.com/theashes/tumbler/tumbler.htmlSo many projects, so little time and money
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rallyrocks
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Post by rallyrocks on Mar 18, 2008 12:56:20 GMT -5
Actually I'd say the jam-peg is about as "hillbilly" as a faceting machine functionally can be, but it does capture the key ingredients, that your sketch misses- the "mast" regulates the position of the top hinge on the dop, which fixes the angle from the face, while the dop has a gear (look closely- the flange-looking thing in the middle is a gear that sets the rotation angle of the dop axis) - so rather than a hard template as your depiction has- the same basic concept- a repeatable fixed "stop" to maintain even, flat symmetric faces. Then again, the art comes in to selecting the combinations of angles and working with the properties of the stone. Spending bigger bucks buys you higher degrees of precision in all regards, but the core requirement is simply even, repeatable control of azimuth and elevation angles along with fixed positions for centers of rotation, truss up your concept enough and you should be able to do something like it, but you will be constrained severely by the small choices of angles dictated by your polygon template. Here is a linkoff that other page that spells it out pretty clearly; www.thegemconnection.com/gl_facet.htm
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Saskrock
fully equipped rock polisher
Member since October 2007
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Post by Saskrock on Mar 18, 2008 16:24:11 GMT -5
Good eye, I had to go back and look at Jacks jam peg link again. On second look I see what you mean. I was assuming it was the same as the jam pegs like I saw videos on you tube of faceters in India using. But this one does have gears to set the rotation. I guess thats why they called it a "callibrated jam peg". That basicly solves the years of practice problem. I was thinking multiple polygons for different angles but the gears are definantly a more elegant solution. Tougher to build though. I had worked out the hieght problem with a sliding dop stick so the length could be changed. Might have to do some more planning
Building the toy is almast as much fun as using it anyway.
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Post by Jack ( Yorkshire) on Mar 19, 2008 3:31:29 GMT -5
Thanks Rallyrocks
Much appreciate you contribution ,
This is way outside my experiance but I knew ther was a way
Jack Yorkshire UK
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rockdewd
has rocks in the head
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Post by rockdewd on Mar 19, 2008 14:22:43 GMT -5
Scott,
Thanks for posting the link for the DIY vibe tumbler. Gives me something to think about when working with my newly discovered Harbor Freight vibratory tumbler bowls.
Rick
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jimrbto
noticing nice landscape pebbles
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Post by jimrbto on Mar 19, 2008 21:19:44 GMT -5
Several years ago a gent by the name of Jack Larr (?) was selling a device called the Lap-Lap which could facet stones by hand. Also most professional diamond cutters use a similar device but used with very accurate tools to insure proper index and angle. Jim
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Wolfden
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Post by Wolfden on Mar 20, 2008 11:44:20 GMT -5
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Post by akansan on Mar 20, 2008 12:54:08 GMT -5
Yeah - I've tried to purchase a Lap-Lap before, but Jack passed away and no one is making a similar product. The Jamb Peg is the closest to a "manual" faceter that's out there these days.
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Saskrock
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Post by Saskrock on Mar 20, 2008 20:13:24 GMT -5
Too bad the bottom half is covered up in all the pictures. The indexing/dop end looks like a nice simple setup. Might have to borrow some of his idea. I just ordered a lap disk last night, so once I get that I think it will be build time. I have a pretty good idea how to make a caliblated jam peg now so That is probably the way to go. This is what I have in mind. Any suggestions? I will post pictures of what I come up with
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jimrbto
noticing nice landscape pebbles
Member since April 2007
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Post by jimrbto on Mar 20, 2008 23:40:59 GMT -5
Scott I have a Lap-Lap that up till now is unused. If you would like I can take any number of pictures and e-mail them to you and then you could post them here for others to view. I am not able to upload pictures here. E-mail me at : jbrenan@verizon.net Let me know what you need and I will do what I can to get them to you. Jim
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Saskrock
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Post by Saskrock on Mar 22, 2008 9:55:15 GMT -5
I think I'm good for now I can see the piece I need clearly, but I will email you to get some pictures to put on here. It sounds like some other people are interested in a lap lap. Could help out someone else, or me to get a closer look. Thanks
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