What IS Money ?

[jamesp]

Tangible property can be very valuable-to the owner. Money vs tangibles- a big difference.

[Deleted]

In 1915 an ounce of gold bought a man a taylored business suit.

Fast forward.

In 2015 the same ounce of gold buys the same garment.

What is money? Paper backed by the full faith and credit of the USA goverment or gold?

[1dave]

May 4, 2015 10:05:15 GMT -5 @shotgunner said:

In 1915 an ounce of gold bought a man a taylored business suit.

Fast forward.

In 2015 the same ounce of gold buys the same garment.

What is money? Paper backed by the full faith and credit of the USA government or gold?

FAITH! That is the correct word. When the Spaniards first arrived the "Indians" didn't much care for gold. It was too soft and wore away too quick. They saw silver and copper as far superior.

[Deleted]

May 4, 2015 10:41:58 GMT -5 1dave said:

When the Spaniards first arrived the "Indians" didn't much care for gold. It was too soft and wore away too quick. They saw silver and copper as far superior.

In modern society, silver is good for smaller transactions. Today a pre-1964 90% silver dime is worth about Faith$1.17. Perhaps 2 pieces buys a loaf of bread? In Cali three buys a couple dozen eggs. After TEOTWAKI junk 90% silver coins will likely become daily currency.

As will squirrel meat and pigeon breasts. If I have a couple pigeons, what might you give me for them?

[1dave]

May 4, 2015 13:16:40 GMT -5 @shotgunner said:

May 4, 2015 10:41:58 GMT -5 1dave said:

When the Spaniards first arrived the "Indians" didn't much care for gold. It was too soft and wore away too quick. They saw silver and copper as far superior.

In modern society, silver is good for smaller transactions. Today a pre-1964 90% silver dime is worth about Faith$1.17. Perhaps 2 pieces buys a loaf of bread? In Cali three buys a couple dozen eggs. After TEOTWAKI junk 90% silver coins will likely become daily currency.

As will squirrel meat and pigeon breasts. If I have a couple pigeons, what might you give me for them?

Live pigeons? Perhaps a hundred pounds of year old buffalo hump?

[captbob]

May 4, 2015 13:16:40 GMT -5 @shotgunner said:

After TEOTWAKI junk 90% silver coins will likely become daily currency.

The problem with this theory is - what percentage of the population will have junk silver coins or any precious metals at all in their possession? Works in the TEOTW books & stories, but I dunno about in actual practice.
Yes, some of those without could acquire them by trading other goods for them, but what does Joe Average (or especially Joe Ghetto Rat) have to trade? Gonna be a LOT of the population needin' to be culled from the picture should they rise up because they don't have whatever the currency ends up being, bartering items or desirable skills.

Money (printed or minted currency) is an illusion barely holding the fabric of civilization together.

[1dave]

May 4, 2015 13:43:09 GMT -5 captbob said:

May 4, 2015 13:16:40 GMT -5 @shotgunner said:

After TEOTWAKI junk 90% silver coins will likely become daily currency.

The problem with this theory is - what percentage of the population will have junk silver coins or any precious metals at all in their possession? Works in the TEOTW books & stories, but I dunno about in actual practice.
Yes, some of those without could acquire them by trading other goods for them, but what does Joe Average (or especially Joe Ghetto Rat) have to trade? Gonna be a LOT of the population needin' to be culled from the picture should they rise up because they don't have whatever the currency ends up being, bartering items or desirable skills.

Money (printed or minted currency) is an illusion barely holding the fabric of civilization together.

YEP! I suspect when the tough times arrive there will be a lot of vicious gangs roaming around taking what they can until citizens with guns kill them all off.

[Deleted]

May 4, 2015 13:43:09 GMT -5 captbob said:

May 4, 2015 13:16:40 GMT -5 @shotgunner said:

After TEOTWAKI junk 90% silver coins will likely become daily currency.

The problem with this theory is - what percentage of the population will have junk silver coins or any precious metals at all in their possession? Works in the TEOTW books & stories, but I dunno about in actual practice.
Yes, some of those without could acquire them by trading other goods for them, but what does Joe Average (or especially Joe Ghetto Rat) have to trade? Gonna be a LOT of the population needin' to be culled from the picture should they rise up because they don't have whatever the currency ends up being, bartering items or desirable skills.

Money (printed or minted currency) is an illusion barely holding the fabric of civilization together.

You make a strong valid point. I suspect based on discussions with friends and colleagues that not enough will have dimes. But that those that do, will have enough to get a local economy rolling. Maybe not enough to sustain? Can't even begin to guess. I keep a non-trivial supply of junk silver in hand. Think 5 figures for what non-trivial means.

In my estimation, in the event the roving mad max style gangs do not materialize (many folks are armed for gosh sakes) that still many many of my friends will fail to thrive. None have even an inkling of a clue how to forage for sustenance. I suck at that, except I wil have zero lack of proteins.

[Deleted]

I was thinking of fresh killed uncleaned. I would trade pound for pound on the buffalo. But only if the hump is properly aged for that year!

Now we are starting our new economy!

[spiritstone]

[jamesp]

Scrap yards gave me a new view point on 'money'. I learned to stockpile on the boneyard back in the corner.
I paid $1000 dollars for the red iron in the photo below. Saved me a bunch of money in terms of structural materials for this project.
So I am a welder, and steel is my dollar when it comes time to build something.

I am also cash poor and sorta well stocked on land. Always preferred the land dollars over the paper dollars.
So far it has worked out w/exception of some non-liquid periods.

Money is much more manipulative in value. Always has and always will.
And in the worst way, by the government. Need more be said ?
It was a good many years ago that US gold reserves no longer backed the US dollar value for value.
Banks operating with 1% collateral at best. Who allows such ? The government.
Review the events of 1929. And other blips along the way. Excellent example of the money trap.
Great for Carnegie and Rockefeller, not the rest of us.

[jamesp]

In 20 years of collecting steel the price has varied from 2-10 cents per pound.
Period of peak price was when it was being sold overseas.
Many manufacturing facilities were torn down during a period to take advantage of 10 cents per pound.
Facilities that were shut down due to the economy, that could have been easily transformed into new manufacturing facilities.
Enough 'easy to remelt' pure steel that could have renovated a large part of our economy.

Not sure what this country was thinking. Corporate America strongly to blame. They owned most of it.
Probably to facilitate the overseas folks building facilities that assisted taking our jobs overseas.

Steel makes jobs, gold backs up money.

[spiritstone]

May 4, 2015 13:43:09 GMT -5 captbob said:

May 4, 2015 13:16:40 GMT -5 @shotgunner said:

After TEOTWAKI junk 90% silver coins will likely become daily currency.

The problem with this theory is - what percentage of the population will have junk silver coins or any precious metals at all in their possession? Works in the TEOTW books & stories, but I dunno about in actual practice.
Yes, some of those without could acquire them by trading other goods for them, but what does Joe Average (or especially Joe Ghetto Rat) have to trade? Gonna be a LOT of the population needin' to be culled from the picture should they rise up because they don't have whatever the currency ends up being, bartering items or desirable skills.

Money (printed or minted currency) is an illusion barely holding the fabric of civilization together.

[1dave]

May 5, 2015 15:48:32 GMT -5 jamesp said:

In 20 years of collecting steel the price has varied from 2-10 cents per pound.
Period of peak price was when it was being sold overseas.
Many manufacturing facilities were torn down during a period to take advantage of 10 cents per pound.
Facilities that were shut down due to the economy, that could have been easily transformed into new manufacturing facilities.
Enough 'easy to remelt' pure steel that could have renovated a large part of our economy.

Not sure what this country was thinking. Corporate America strongly to blame. They owned most of it.
Probably to facilitate the overseas folks building facilities that assisted taking our jobs overseas.

Steel makes jobs, gold backs up money.

Politicians spin facts and figures so many ways the truth becomes difficult to find. Example:

The almighty dollar deserves quite a bit of blame for the lowly state of the U.S economy

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) — The almighty dollar deserves quite a bit of blame for the lowly state of the U.S economy early in the year.

From July 2014 through March 2015, the value of the dollar jumped 14% in trade-weighted terms. That made U.S.-made goods and services more expensive around the world at a time when many other countries were also struggling to cope with slowing economies of their own.

The result: American exports fell 5% over the same 12-month span, the biggest year-over-year decline since late 2009 as the U.S. was emerging from the Great Recession.(We recovered?)

Read: U.S. trade deficit in March jumps to highest level since 2008.

The stronger dollar has also contributed to a decline in U.S. corporate profits and spurred manufacturers to scale back production and hiring.

With exports down sharply in the first quarter, the U.S. economy is likely to show contraction when the government revises gross domestic product later in the month. Initially, the government had said the economy grew 0.2% in the first three months of the year.

An unusually harsh winter was probably the biggest downer, but the strong dollar also played the role of villain.

The rise in the dollar appears to have halted, however, and the global economy seems to be recovering. If so, that could brighten the U.S. trade picture later in the year and trigger a rebound in exports.

The dollar has surged in value owing to a number of factors, including the expectation that the Federal Reserve will raise interest rates later this year. Some investors bought the U.S. currency to benefit from the dollar’s appreciation. Other sought to invest in a U.S. economy that was growing faster than the rest of the world. And still others wanted a place to safely park their money in an uncertain world.

So the more they destroy the dollar, the better off we are?
Like global warming, the colder it gets the hotter it really is.

[1dave]

Only twenty votes so far.

With just the wave of a hand government can starve 3/4ths of the population, but few even pay attention.

[lparker]

How many votes will change what a dollar is worth or who decides what it is worth?

[1dave]

May 8, 2015 18:17:19 GMT -5 lparker said:

How many votes will change what a dollar is worth or who decides what it is worth?

Just curious who is paying attention or gives a damn.

[1dave]

What do you know about Bitcoins?


Mining bitcoins.

Bitcoin[note 5] is a payment system invented by Satoshi Nakamoto,[note 6] who published the invention in 2008[5] and released it as open-source software in 2009.[6] The system is peer-to-peer; users can transact directly without needing an intermediary.[7]:4 Transactions are verified by network nodes and recorded in a public distributed ledger called the block chain.[8] The ledger uses its own unit of account, also called bitcoin.[note 7] The system works without a central repository or single administrator, which has led the US Treasury to categorize it as a decentralized virtual currency.[9] Bitcoin is often called the first cryptocurrency,[10][11][12] although prior systems existed.[note 8] Bitcoin is more correctly described as the first decentralized digital currency.[7][13] It is the largest of its kind in terms of total market value.[14]

Bitcoins are created as a reward for payment processing work in which users offer their computing power to verify and record payments into the public ledger. This activity is called mining and is rewarded by transaction fees and newly created bitcoins.[7] Besides mining, bitcoins can be obtained in exchange for different currencies,[15] products, and services.[16] Users can send and receive bitcoins for an optional transaction fee.[17]

Bitcoin as a form of payment for products and services has grown,[16] and merchants have an incentive to accept it because fees are lower than the 2–3% typically imposed by credit card processors.[18] Despite a big increase in the number of merchants accepting bitcoin, the cryptocurrency doesn’t have much momentum in retail transactions.[19] Unlike credit cards, any fees are paid by the purchaser, not the vendor. The European Banking Authority[20] and other sources[7]:11 have warned that bitcoin users are not protected by refund rights or chargebacks.

The use of bitcoin by criminals has attracted the attention of financial regulators,[21] legislative bodies,[22] law enforcement,[23] and media.[24] As of 2013, criminal activities primarily centered around theft and black markets. Officials in countries such as the United States also recognize that bitcoin can provide legitimate financial services.[25]

Anyone use them?



What Are Bitcoins? Virtual Currency Explained

Four Reasons You Shouldn't Buy Bitcoins - Forbes

[bushmanbilly]

I think its a well thought out scam. If they were made of gold or silver. I would believe in them.

[bushmanbilly]

The Biggest Scam In The History Of Mankind (Documentary) - Hidden Secrets of Money 4