13' 4" gator caught in L. George last week

[jamesp]

Lake George known for record females. This one a big buck

[captbob]

That's a big honkin' gator! Gator was probably the king of his world.
Understand hunting 'em, but it's still a shame to see such majesty taken.

A perfect machine. They will make more!

[jamesp]

Aug 27, 2016 10:10:31 GMT -5 captbob said:

That's a big honkin' gator! Gator was probably the king of his world.
Understand hunting 'em, but it's still a shame to see such majesty taken.

A perfect machine. They will make more!

That lake needs thinning. Too many gators. This one stimated at 30 years old and yes, hurts to see the kings taken.
I wish they would make them kill 11 feet and less, let those dinosaurs alone.
Apparently they can live much longer and get quite a bit bigger but hunters manage to nip them early.
A lot of those big guys get killed in canals, by residents. But go unrecorded because of the strict laws protecting them.

beacononlinenews.com/articles/2016/08/24/whoa-lake-george-catch-likely-record#.V74zKjmhw2I.facebook

[jamesp]

Crocodilian behavior on the St John's River as reported by William Bartram in his 1774 journey thru N Florida.
I believe he estimated gators over 20 feet long, before they were hunted so much.
Some say he exaggerated. Must wonder if the gators back then may have been very old and large.

Interesting read. I like the way they line up facing upstream side by side filtering fish(and kayakers ?) out of a river.

I find Bartram's descriptions accurate.

ufdcimages.uflib.ufl.edu/UF/00/08/89/69/00001/UF00088969.pdf

[Deleted]

Aug 27, 2016 11:35:50 GMT -5 jamesp said:

Crocodilian behavior on the St John's River as reported by William Bartram in his 1774 journey thru N Florida.
I believe he estimated gators over 20 feet long, before they were hunted so much.
Some say he exaggerated. Must wonder if the gators back then may have been very old and large.

Interesting read. I like the way they line up facing upstream side by side filtering fish(and kayakers ?) out of a river.

I find Bartram's descriptions accurate.

ufdcimages.uflib.ufl.edu/UF/00/08/89/69/00001/UF00088969.pdf

14' is the practical maximum for American alligators. A few will go a little over. If 20' gators existed skulls would remain and morphometrics would be applied to tell us so. I'm won't deny it, but do doubt it.

[jamesp]

Aug 27, 2016 12:31:56 GMT -5 @shotgunner said:

Aug 27, 2016 11:35:50 GMT -5 jamesp said:

Crocodilian behavior on the St John's River as reported by William Bartram in his 1774 journey thru N Florida.
I believe he estimated gators over 20 feet long, before they were hunted so much.
Some say he exaggerated. Must wonder if the gators back then may have been very old and large.

Interesting read. I like the way they line up facing upstream side by side filtering fish(and kayakers ?) out of a river.

I find Bartram's descriptions accurate.

ufdcimages.uflib.ufl.edu/UF/00/08/89/69/00001/UF00088969.pdf

14' is the practical maximum for American alligators. A few will go a little over. If 20' gators existed skulls would remain and morphometrics would be applied to tell us so. I'm won't deny it, but do doubt it.

Excellent point Scott. Some where some how you would think there would be preserved remains somewhere.
However, this place is not known for it's preservation of historical aged organic matter.
Skeletons are serious targets for all kinds of predators.
As much remote wetland that is available some one some where would have had to have caught a 15-16-17-18 footer.
they probably die at 14.

Alligator snapping turtles- are they not very long lived? Like 150-200 years ?
I have seen two that were like no others, big as sea turtles. 150 pounds maybe. Sound possible ?

[Deleted]

jamesp

Not necessarily wild skulls, but those from hunting expeditions, (trophys) and also museum specimens.

Allisnaps?

Easily 70-90 years. Could be many more. The huge ones are all male. Can't explain why... Usually in turtles the females are larger. Bigger female lays more eggs, passes her genes on.

[Peruano]

I'll have to look up the recorded giant alligator photographed by the Tabasco King (McIlhenny). It was a monster almost unbelievable even to someone who has encountered big crocs. He was rich enough to indulge in alligators as a hobby. Males are larger in those species where males compete for space or directly for females. Males call to attract females (like birds) and to defend territories against other males. 14' males are no exception in undisturbed populations (i.e. Rockafeller Wildlife - donated to Louisiana by the McIlhenny family). If you restrict hunting to small sizes you get only juveniles (there are many more of them), but if you allow hunting on intermediate sizes you are focusing on females and young males (good for lowering populations but bad for future in declining habitat scenario). Males move around over larger territories and thus are more likely to be hunted or killed by animal control, automobiles, or other human factors compared to females. Females guard nests also making them more vulnerable to being hunted (or controlled out of fear by nearby residents). And this reduced life expectancy also leads to increased disparity between male and female size. Ain't nature wonderful.

[Deleted]

Aug 27, 2016 14:16:13 GMT -5 Peruano said:

I'll have to look up the recorded giant alligator photographed by the Tabasco King (McIlhenny). It was a monster almost unbelievable even to someone who has encountered big crocs. He was rich enough to indulge in alligators as a hobby. Males are larger in those species where males compete for space or directly for females. Males call to attract females (like birds) and to defend territories against other males. 14' males are no exception in undisturbed populations (i.e. Rockafeller Wildlife - donated to Louisiana by the McIlhenny family). If you restrict hunting to small sizes you get only juveniles (there are many more of them), but if you allow hunting on intermediate sizes you are focusing on females and young males (good for lowering populations but bad for future in declining habitat scenario). Males move around over larger territories and thus are more likely to be hunted or killed by animal control, automobiles, or other human factors compared to females. Females guard nests also making them more vulnerable to being hunted (or controlled out of fear by nearby residents). And this reduced life expectancy also leads to increased disparity between male and female size. Ain't nature wonderful.

Tom. Are you aware of combat in male alligator snapping turtles?

[Peruano]

Due to my clumsy typing, my relatively long response went into hyperspace. Maybe this one will be more succinct.
McIlhenny recorded several animals in the 17-18 ft range and himself claimed to have killed one who measured 19' 2" (the average of 3 measurements). The largest for Florida is reportedly 17' 5" (fide Neil) for Lake Apopka.
12 to 14 footers are not exceptional at Rockafeller Wildlife Refuge where hunting has not existed for decades.

Shotgunner, I'm aware of the aggressive interactions of Allagator Snapping Turtles (where females are bigger than males by much). They may be a special case where head size may be the factor in dominance, instead of overall size. Why should female turtles be larger than males as opposed to allagators? Well if a female needs big girth to accommodate large clutch sizes turtles are limited by their shell volume, while crocs can bulk up as needed and shrink back in nonreproductive times. Dominance in Galapagos tortoises is determined by vertical reach (height) rather than overall size, hence saddlebacks are dominant over domed individuals that are as much as 3 x the weight.
Some turtles use large clutch sizes (number of eggs) to increase prospects of successful reproduction whereas crocodilians use parental care (guarding eggs, guarding young, etc. like birds). Note vocalizations in mating and attraction of mates (like birds), did I mention that crocs are most closely related to birds?
I apologize for the bio lesson, but its all connected and we need to consider it.

[Peruano]

Whoops, I was assuming that I recalled correctly that female alligator snappers were the largest, but Mintons in Giant Reptiles say the males are probably larger, and Carr in his turtle book says that males are probably larger. What is true is that both sexes have long tails and they differ only in where the cloacal opening is located and hence are hard to sex. Thus reported sexual dimorphism may be suspect. I don't pretend to understand snapping turtle behavior but they are coooooool animals.

[jamesp]

Aug 27, 2016 15:47:36 GMT -5 Peruano said:

Whoops, I was assuming that I recalled correctly that female alligator snappers were the largest, but Mintons in Giant Reptiles say the males are probably larger, and Carr in his turtle book says that males are probably larger. What is true is that both sexes have long tails and they differ only in where the cloacal opening is located and hence are hard to sex. Thus reported sexual dimorphism may be suspect. I don't pretend to understand snapping turtle behavior but they are coooooool animals.

Have seen two Tom that guessing 30-36 inches long. 24-28 inches wide. 12-15 inches tall. Just big heavy animals with huge heads.

[Deleted]

Aug 27, 2016 15:47:36 GMT -5 Peruano said:

Whoops, I was assuming that I recalled correctly that female alligator snappers were the largest, but Mintons in Giant Reptiles say the males are probably larger, and Carr in his turtle book says that males are probably larger. What is true is that both sexes have long tails and they differ only in where the cloacal opening is located and hence are hard to sex. Thus reported sexual dimorphism may be suspect. I don't pretend to understand snapping turtle behavior but they are coooooool animals.

Huge allisnaps are all male. And they are the ones going on walkabout. The largest ones seem to be found going on walkabout way north up the Mississippi.....

I believe all Illinois records for the species are the large old males and the state has zero breeding population.

The species has a large tail, no doubt. The males have a vent outside the rim of the carapace, females inside. It is diagnostic and thus the species is easily sexed. I learned this from a huge allisnap farm owner in Louisiana.

Carr and Minton are so outdated as to be important only for historical value. Farming of almost all common species has added tremendous knowledge. Hands on beats field observation in many avenues.

[jamesp]

Aug 27, 2016 12:31:56 GMT -5 @shotgunner said:

Aug 27, 2016 11:35:50 GMT -5 jamesp said:

Crocodilian behavior on the St John's River as reported by William Bartram in his 1774 journey thru N Florida.
I believe he estimated gators over 20 feet long, before they were hunted so much.
Some say he exaggerated. Must wonder if the gators back then may have been very old and large.

Interesting read. I like the way they line up facing upstream side by side filtering fish(and kayakers ?) out of a river.

I find Bartram's descriptions accurate.

ufdcimages.uflib.ufl.edu/UF/00/08/89/69/00001/UF00088969.pdf

14' is the practical maximum for American alligators. A few will go a little over. If 20' gators existed skulls would remain and morphometrics would be applied to tell us so. I'm won't deny it, but do doubt it.

I was surprised to see rockpickerforever's post of a 15' 9" caught in 2014. Estimated age only 24-28 years old.
Never knew of any of them being much over 14.

Related article, gator on display

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3094393/World-s-biggest-American-alligator-caught-Alabama-family-goes-displa.html

[jamesp]

Check out Bartram's drama. Gators don't act like this in modern times. amusing read. Perhaps they really were aggressive in 1790.




But ere I had half-way reached the place, I was attacked on all sides, several endeavouring to overset the canoe.

My situation now became precarious to the last degree: two very large ones attacked me closely, at the same instant, rushing up with their heads and part of their bodies above the water, roaring terribly and belching floods of water over me. They struck their jaws together so close to my ears, as almost to stun me, and I expected every moment to be dragged out of the boat and instantly devoured.

But I applied my weapons so effectually about me, though at random, that I was so successful as to beat them off a little; when, finding that they designed to renew the battle, I made for the shore, as the only means left me for my preservation, for, by keeping close to it, I should have my enemies on one side of me only, whereas I was before surrounded by them, and there was a probability, if pushed to the last extremity, of saving myself, by jumping out of the canoe on shore, as it is easy to outwalk them on land, although comparatively [they were] as swift as lightning in the water.

I found this last expedient alone could fully answer my expectations, for as soon as I gained the shore they drew off and kept aloof. This was a happy relief, as my confidence was, in some degree, recovered by it. On recollecting myself, I discovered that I had almost reached the entrance of the lagoon, and determined to venture in, if possible to take a few fish and then return to my harbour, while day-light continued; for I could now, with caution and resolution, make my way with safety along shore, and indeed there was no other way to regain my camp, without leaving my boat and making my retreat through the marshes and reeds, which, if I could even effect, would have been in a manner throwing myself away, for then there would have been no hopes of ever recovering my bark, and returning in safety to any settlements of men. I accordingly proceeded and made good my entrance into the lagoon, though not without opposition from the alligators, who formed a line across the entrance, but did not pursue me into it, nor was I molested by any there, though there were some very large ones in a cove at the upper end.

I soon caught more trout than I had present occasion for, and the air was too hot and sultry to admit of their being kept for many hours, even though salted or barbecued. I now prepared for my return to camp, which I succeeded in with but little trouble, by keeping close to the shore, yet I was opposed upon re-entering the river out of the lagoon, and pursued near to my landing (though not closely attacked) particularly by an old daring one, about twelve feet in length, who kept close after me.

And when I stepped on shore and turned about, in order to draw up my canoe, he rushed up near my feet and lay there for some time, looking me in the face, his head and shoulders out of water; I resolved he should pay for his temerity, and having a heavy load in my fusee, I ran to my camp, and returning with my piece, found him with his foot on the gunwale of the boat, in search of fish, on my coming up he withdrew sullenly and slowly into the water, but soon returned and placed himself in his former position, looking at me and seeming neither fearful or any way disturbed.

I soon dispatched him by lodging the contents of my gun in his head, and then proceeded to cleanse and prepare my fish for supper, and accordingly took them out of the boat, laid them down on the sand close to the water, and began to scale them–

— when, raising my head, I saw before me, through the clear water, the head and shoulders of a very large alligator, moving slowly towards me; I instantly stepped back, when, with a sweep of his tail, he brushed off several of my fish.

It was certainly most providential that I looked up at that instant, as the monster would probably, in less than a minute, have seized and dragged me into the river. This incredible boldness of the animal disturbed me greatly, supposing there could now be no reasonable safety for me during the night, but by keeping continually on the watch; I therefore, as soon as I had prepared the fish, proceeded to secure myself and effects in the best manner I could: in the first place, I hauled my bark upon the shore, almost clear out of the water, to prevent their oversetting or sinking her, after this every moveable was taken out and carried to my camp, which was but a few yards off; then ranging some dry wood in such order as was the most convenient, cleared the ground round about it, that there might be no impediment in my way, in case of an attack in the night, either from the water or the land; for I discovered by this time, that this small isthmus, from its remote situation and fruitfulness, was resorted to by bears and wolves. W-Bartram-CLR

Having prepared myself in the best manner I could, I charged my gun and proceeded to reconnoitre my camp and the adjacent grounds; when I discovered that the peninsula and grove, at the distance of about two hundred yards from my encampment, on the land side, were invested by a Cypress swamp, covered with water, which below was jointed to the shore of the little lake, and above to the marshes surrounding the lagoon, so that I was confined to an islet exceedingly circumscribed, and I found there was no other retreat for me, in case of an attack, but by either ascending one of the large Oaks, or pushing off with my boat.

—From Bartram’s Travels, published 1791

Related

[jamesp]

Apparently this one was caught in Troup county in the past few days. Close to Atlanta. 12 footer and unusually north.
No details yet, hope they post the location on the Chattahoochee River.

[Deleted]

Aug 28, 2016 5:22:28 GMT -5 jamesp said:

Check out Bartram's drama. Gators don't act like this in modern times. amusing read. Perhaps they really were aggressive in 1790.




But ere I had half-way reached the place, I was attacked on all sides, several endeavouring to overset the canoe.

My situation now became precarious to the last degree: two very large ones attacked me closely, at the same instant, rushing up with their heads and part of their bodies above the water, roaring terribly and belching floods of water over me. They struck their jaws together so close to my ears, as almost to stun me, and I expected every moment to be dragged out of the boat and instantly devoured.

But I applied my weapons so effectually about me, though at random, that I was so successful as to beat them off a little; when, finding that they designed to renew the battle, I made for the shore, as the only means left me for my preservation, for, by keeping close to it, I should have my enemies on one side of me only, whereas I was before surrounded by them, and there was a probability, if pushed to the last extremity, of saving myself, by jumping out of the canoe on shore, as it is easy to outwalk them on land, although comparatively [they were] as swift as lightning in the water.

I found this last expedient alone could fully answer my expectations, for as soon as I gained the shore they drew off and kept aloof. This was a happy relief, as my confidence was, in some degree, recovered by it. On recollecting myself, I discovered that I had almost reached the entrance of the lagoon, and determined to venture in, if possible to take a few fish and then return to my harbour, while day-light continued; for I could now, with caution and resolution, make my way with safety along shore, and indeed there was no other way to regain my camp, without leaving my boat and making my retreat through the marshes and reeds, which, if I could even effect, would have been in a manner throwing myself away, for then there would have been no hopes of ever recovering my bark, and returning in safety to any settlements of men. I accordingly proceeded and made good my entrance into the lagoon, though not without opposition from the alligators, who formed a line across the entrance, but did not pursue me into it, nor was I molested by any there, though there were some very large ones in a cove at the upper end.

I soon caught more trout than I had present occasion for, and the air was too hot and sultry to admit of their being kept for many hours, even though salted or barbecued. I now prepared for my return to camp, which I succeeded in with but little trouble, by keeping close to the shore, yet I was opposed upon re-entering the river out of the lagoon, and pursued near to my landing (though not closely attacked) particularly by an old daring one, about twelve feet in length, who kept close after me.

And when I stepped on shore and turned about, in order to draw up my canoe, he rushed up near my feet and lay there for some time, looking me in the face, his head and shoulders out of water; I resolved he should pay for his temerity, and having a heavy load in my fusee, I ran to my camp, and returning with my piece, found him with his foot on the gunwale of the boat, in search of fish, on my coming up he withdrew sullenly and slowly into the water, but soon returned and placed himself in his former position, looking at me and seeming neither fearful or any way disturbed.

I soon dispatched him by lodging the contents of my gun in his head, and then proceeded to cleanse and prepare my fish for supper, and accordingly took them out of the boat, laid them down on the sand close to the water, and began to scale them–

— when, raising my head, I saw before me, through the clear water, the head and shoulders of a very large alligator, moving slowly towards me; I instantly stepped back, when, with a sweep of his tail, he brushed off several of my fish.

It was certainly most providential that I looked up at that instant, as the monster would probably, in less than a minute, have seized and dragged me into the river. This incredible boldness of the animal disturbed me greatly, supposing there could now be no reasonable safety for me during the night, but by keeping continually on the watch; I therefore, as soon as I had prepared the fish, proceeded to secure myself and effects in the best manner I could: in the first place, I hauled my bark upon the shore, almost clear out of the water, to prevent their oversetting or sinking her, after this every moveable was taken out and carried to my camp, which was but a few yards off; then ranging some dry wood in such order as was the most convenient, cleared the ground round about it, that there might be no impediment in my way, in case of an attack in the night, either from the water or the land; for I discovered by this time, that this small isthmus, from its remote situation and fruitfulness, was resorted to by bears and wolves. W-Bartram-CLR

Having prepared myself in the best manner I could, I charged my gun and proceeded to reconnoitre my camp and the adjacent grounds; when I discovered that the peninsula and grove, at the distance of about two hundred yards from my encampment, on the land side, were invested by a Cypress swamp, covered with water, which below was jointed to the shore of the little lake, and above to the marshes surrounding the lagoon, so that I was confined to an islet exceedingly circumscribed, and I found there was no other retreat for me, in case of an attack, but by either ascending one of the large Oaks, or pushing off with my boat.

—From Bartram’s Travels, published 1791

Related

Clealry the PT Barnum of alligators...

[jamesp]

@shotgunner

Gator hunting is becoming popular. Openly and legally.

1973 they were put on protected list.
1987 they were removed from list.

Alligators were not common back in those days.

2016-1987 = 29 years. Typical age of 13 -14 footers.

Don't be surprised if they start harvesting in the 15 and 16 foot range.

The 15' 9" Alabama gator proves size beyond 14'. That one is for real. New benchmark.

And I am aware of 4 alligators that have been killed at L. George that were bigger than the 13' 4" 'record' at L. George.
They get shot regularly as nuisance animals, die out in open water, then float up on shore or get eaten by predators.
Or the easy way, hanging meat from a limb on a hook and decimate the population. Like they did in the first half of the 1900's.

[Deleted]

Aug 28, 2016 15:58:03 GMT -5 jamesp said:

@shotgunner

Gator hunting is becoming popular. Openly and legally.

1973 they were put on protected list.
1987 they were removed from list.

Alligators were not common back in those days.

2016-1987 = 29 years. Typical age of 13 -14 footers.

Don't be surprised if they start harvesting in the 15 and 16 foot range.

The 15' 9" Alabama gator proves size beyond 14'. That one is for real. New benchmark.

And I am aware of 4 alligators that have been killed at L. George that were bigger than the 13' 4" 'record' at L. George.
They get shot regularly as nuisance animals, die out in open water, then float up on shore or get eaten by predators.
Or the easy way, hanging meat from a limb on a hook and decimate the population. Like they did in the first half of the 1900's.

I did say a few will get bigger.

Just like shaquille O'Neill

[jamesp]

Aug 28, 2016 17:52:37 GMT -5 @shotgunner said:

Aug 28, 2016 15:58:03 GMT -5 jamesp said:

@shotgunner

Gator hunting is becoming popular. Openly and legally.

1973 they were put on protected list.
1987 they were removed from list.

Alligators were not common back in those days.

2016-1987 = 29 years. Typical age of 13 -14 footers.

Don't be surprised if they start harvesting in the 15 and 16 foot range.

The 15' 9" Alabama gator proves size beyond 14'. That one is for real. New benchmark.

And I am aware of 4 alligators that have been killed at L. George that were bigger than the 13' 4" 'record' at L. George.
They get shot regularly as nuisance animals, die out in open water, then float up on shore or get eaten by predators.
Or the easy way, hanging meat from a limb on a hook and decimate the population. Like they did in the first half of the 1900's.

I did say a few will get bigger.

Just like shaquille O'Neill

Every species has it's giants.
Very likely.
Will keep an eye on the ones harvested. Never know.