Post by mohs on Jul 22, 2018 20:10:36 GMT -5
Where did you get a map that shows Corazones?
The Valley of the Hearts!
Centuries of searchers have been searching for that location
Reading of the Relacion by de Niza
he never mentions Corazones
Only Coronado speaks of it in a letter
he wrote from there to the Viceroy Mendoza
Coronado really talks up the village of Corazones in that letter.
What we do know is that is where Coronado start to
(o how should we say it?)
on the good Fray
Peculiar & mysterious
There is no way that Friar de Niza could have missed the
Valley of the Hearts.
So why does Coronado make so much of it?
Who’s not being truthful?
Find the Heart --- Find the Treasure hhhhhhmmmmmmmmm…..
Some scholarship speculate that it is,
at this very point between
Corazones & Chichishiticolli,
Marco de Niza &
Francisco Vásquez de Coronado
colluded to keep a secret.
What had to be kept hidden?
Member since February 2018
Post by pizzano on Jul 23, 2018 17:28:23 GMT -5
Why is Snaketown not part of the 7 cities?en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snaketown
Excavated west half of Ballcourt I at Snaketown, 1935. Photo courtesy Arizona State Museum.
It appears that the town had been long abandoned before Frey Marcos' time, and infested with snakes, hence the new name for whatever the original was.
Wonder how much/many of the Ootam/Honokam cultures eventually molded/morphed into the Hopi/Navajo societies that managed better record keeping and "word of mouth" history we acknowledge today........both settled in or around (prior to white mans intervention) within the same geographically similar locations centuries after any known Ootam/Honokam existence......!
Post by mohs on Jul 24, 2018 9:08:53 GMT -5
This is an interesting question!
The common theory is indeed that the Hoho's blended into the Pima .
Pima’s ways are very similar to the Hoho’s lifestyle
Such as canal irrigating, ranchero housing, red on buff pottery ect…
The one distinction that argues against the Hoho blending in with the Pima is their treatment of the dead.
Hoho were famous for cremation as opposed to inhumation.
The Pima’s do not practice cremation. Suppose that can be explained in many ways.
May just be that the practiced died from lack of burning material?
It takes a lot of resources to reduce a human body to ash.
Where did the Hohokam get the combustibles, for that sort of practice,in the Sonoran desert?
They cleared a lot brush digging those canals!
Sire they kept that material for such purposes!
But still it limited resource/
Yet one of the problem of understanding what happened to the Hohokam
is that during the Polvoron phase (AD 1300/1375)
they were living side by side with the Pueblo Indian of the Salado culture. .
Why did the Salado Pueblo Indians abandon the Four Corner area of the Ansazi and migrate to Hoho land?
That is an unknown-- so far. Warfare and cannibalism have been suggested.
Archeologist have a pretty good idea that those same Salado Indians
abandoned the Hohokam area around 1400 and migrated out to Papagueria.
Did the Hohokam migrate with them?
That seems unlikely.
So what became of the Hohokam?
Cushing suggests it was earthquakes that devastated the area.
I find that unlikely.
Was it a catastrophic natural event that caused the demise of Hohokam culture?
It was long chain of bad luck events that slowly deteriorated them.
So my idea is that Hohokam never left! They stayed against all the odds.
Out of integrity to their ancestors-- they stayed until the bitter end.
Fading slowly into the setting desert sun.
Best way to go …mostly
But this is what is really interesting.
We don’t know what occurred in the Valley from the years 1450 until 1700.
Some speculate that a comet exploded over the area depositing, at the loess, megatons of debris. hhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....
Post by grumpybill on Jul 25, 2018 19:23:24 GMT -5
Possible that the comet explosion was taken as a sign that The End was coming/arrived and the community committed mass suicide?
Post by mohs on Jul 27, 2018 12:44:07 GMT -5
Cushing reported that walls were toppled.
Yes a skeleton were found under a wall.
From my readings he wasn’t very specific on how many skeletons.
Certainly I don’t read mass causalities
He attributed the wall destruction to earthquakes/
Caliche walls, not maintained, tumble over through the decades.
Yet the 4 story high Casa Grande withstood the quake!
Lets set aside the quake argument for a uno momento.
Cushing also documented quite a few buried bodies
Again from my reading-- were those deliberate inhumation?
This may be what as caused all the confusion!
Buried bodies conflated with a report of a skeletons under the wall ?
A catastrophe such as a quake and falling walls could have crushed many people.
And yes, survivors may have buried them.
Nonetheless if such an event was evident
those astute observers of the Hemenway Expedition
would have been more explicit in their explanation.
One of the big problems is that Cushing never finished his manuscript!
He starts off explaining how Los Muerte is an excellent site of great historical value.
(He even remarks that it was destroyed many thousands of years ago
Pointing out a priest temple, sun room ect….
Even saying a particular mound may have been a funeral pyre.
Is this evidence of a mass burial/cremation?
Then he just stops!
Doesn’t write any more.
Yet extensive excavation continued at Los Muertos
for about a year and half.
Many artifacts were recovered and sent back east to the Peabody Museum.
Human Bone, stonework, metates, manos, arrow shaft straighter, pottery, spindle whorl, shell jewelry, clay pendants, effigies, slate palettes & reflective shiny surfaces, pipes, calendar sticks, shist blade (which worked better than it name would imply) shist bird pendant (actually very nice), some turquoise mosaics, a copper bell fragment, cane cigarette w/sash, pahos or prayer stick...ect
So it was a valuable historical recovery
But Cushing remains mostly silent.
More I cannot say…
Post by mohs on Jul 27, 2018 12:46:34 GMT -5
Now going to Peterson account. *
Is it possible that in 1539,
the good Fray
ascended South Mountain and saw a thriving Cibola ?
Well it is possible he ascended the mountain.
But the thriving part is hard to square
with archeologist conclusions.
were mostly ghostly;
if not completely dead,
Canals would have been at a trickle and smoke signals faint.
But these sites are huge & well laid out.
Maybe when the good Fray visited,
it just so happened to coincide,
with the any of the remaining Hohokam's monthly pow wow?
But I don’t know.
(I need to peruse Peterson book when I visit Burton Barr ).
Till then –
Cushing found mass destruction and dead lying about.
Cushing speaks of earthquakes.
Peterson of comets.
Archeologist of slow degradation.
I’ll keep digging…
Artificial cranial deformation
Post by mohs on May 27, 2019 12:37:37 GMT -5
The above book is the full story of the WW2 German POW Escape from Papago Park
Dec 23 1944
The author may have inflated some of that story but not by much!
(I’ll try to give a synopsis)
What an incredible feat and stealthy escape
these German Submariners known as the Wolf Pack pulled off!
Over the course of a few month’s 23 prisoners escaped by digging a 180 foot long, 6 foot deep under ground tunnel through the granititic piedomnt caliche bedrocks of the Buttes. Just enough to belly crawl through. The tunnel went out under the fence, next to the Cross Cut canal that they used for their escape. A incredible feat of geometric precision.
Much was made in the investigation of how diffult it would have been tunnel through the bedrock? The dum dum Americans said they had to use blasting caps to put in the measly fence posts during construction of the camp. Ha.
Given a screwdriver and determination that bedrock is actually pretty frangible. The Germans prove it. Tafoni baloney aside. They pilfered garden tools from their cotton picking work detail in Chandler.
Didn’t we issue you a shovel?
Whoops, I must left out in field, Kommendant.
On that day before Christmas Eve 1944 – the other Germans prisoner in the camp initiated a drunken farcical riot to divert the attention of the American prison guards. It worked really well! 23 men wiggled their selves through the tunnel to freedom.
The job of any POW is to escape. And Escape they did! Doing their duty & job with aplomb and class. They had backpacks full of schnaaps, bacon, matches, tobacco, maps, compass, change of clothes, & a crafted canoe that they planned to use to float down the Gila River to Mexico. They were very serious Germans. Crafty and smart.
Unfortunately the Sonoran Desert defeated these men from their goal of Mexico & ultimately the FatherLand. Heil
A huge manhunt was commenced which resulted in all them being caught.
No one died or was badly injured.
A happy ending,,,mostly
The Investigative proceeding was big news. The Papago Camp Commanders and guards came close to being court martialed. Yet it was such a Keystone Kop operation -- it was forgotten into the desert winds.
As youngster I dined at the Chinese restaurant on Central and Adams where Kaptian zur Jurgen Wattenberg on January 25th had himself a big dish of beef chow mien. He made a mistake of asking for directions, in that Phoenix night, for the way to the Union station, which was only few blocks away. His accent gave him away. Yah
So back to Papago he went courtesy of Maricopa sheriff. . He wasn’t completely unhappy about it. He had braved the desert for over 3 weeks hiding out by Squaw Peak. Heck he even saw the sun rise from the top, planting a white flag with his Gruß greetings.
Interesting read on many levels
Obviously for those Phoenician interested in buried tales & Papago
Plus the sea battles & capture these submariners at sea
& the underground spy networks
Should interest WW2 war buffs….
My Memorial Salute…
Post by mohs on Jan 1, 2020 20:22:28 GMT -5
This picture didn't come out as well as I could of hoped for
But I was fortunate
Its the Papago Buttes lit by
the sun taken from mid top level of South Mountain.
That's about 50 miles away
I was driving down from the Summit
I quickly pulled off the side of the road
(a difficult task indeed)
to capture the shot before the shadows disappeared
When those Buttes light up like this
it’s a really cool surreal affect.
I can only imagine what the Hohokam’s saw
w/ their keen senses.
This massive desert valley, unpolluted,
as they gazed down to inspect their canals
and farming projects.
And for anyone approaching
Must have been quite a light show….