Pre-Phoenix

[1dave]

Thread Transporter (Under Construction)

1. Spanish Conquest
a. Cabeza de Vaca route
b. Fray Marcos de Niza route
c. Coronado Route
c2. Coronado Route

2.Geologic Forces of Papago
a1. Mountain Building
a2. Mountain Building
Topo
b. Papago Caves
c1. Salt River Flooding
c2. modern salt River Flooding
d. Volcano Activity
e. Tongue & Icicle Formation

3.Lost Cities Of Cibola
a. Myths of Gold
b. Hohokam
c. Zuni
d. Quiveria
e. LDM

4.Comet Aoelian Theory
a. Loess Distribution
b. Easter Island
c. Dates of Occurrences

mohs is also responsible for my interest in Phoenix through the book "The lost Cities of Cibola."

By the time I finished reading the book I was convinced that the modern day city of Phoenix has indeed arisen from the "ashes" of the lost cities of Cibola."

In brief the story began in 1521 with the Spanish conquest of Mexico where word of the fabled cities were often heard.
De Vaca and three others, the only survivors of a failed attempt to conquer Florida arrived from the north with more stories in 1536.

In 1539 Fray Marcos and company traveled to the cities on a course near the eastern coast of Mexico into present day Arizona. He recorded many wondrous lands, people numbering in the hundreds of thousands, buildings, adornments of turquoise, clothing of cotton, wool, cowhide, then fled back to Mexico City in mortal terror after the chief of Cibola was angered by a gift that contained Aztec copper bells.

In 1540 Marcos was forced to lead Coronado and a rag tag army of 50 horsemen and a small infantry to the famed cities. It appears Marcos convinced Coronado they would all be killed, they were instead lead through middle Mexico into New Mexico and found the Zuni civilization and returned in disgrace.

In 1694 Kino visited the Salt River area of Arizona and discovered La Casa Grande surrounded by many ruins, all that was left of the Cibola civilization.

Modern archaeologists know it as the Hohokam, which in Zuni means "the worn out men." Hokam means "dead men."

What happened to Cibola between 1539 and 1694?
That is what the book is about.

[1dave]

The Canals around Phoenix

www.gemland.com/hohokam.htm

[1dave]

The Hills around Phoenix have a weird flowing blanket covering that oozed out in places forming caves.
if you are in the area I'd like to see more photos of Barnes Butte, McDowell Butte, and Hole in the Rock.







Hole in the Rock

[melhill1659]

I always enjoy your post that delves into history mixed with Topos!!! Thank You for sharing this.

[mohs]

Right on Dave !
posted some great images

Glad you enjoyed the book!

Certainly wild speculative geology
Aeolian theory of massive comet deposits created the Papago’s Buttes?
I discounted the theory.
But as I give it more thought well… who knows?


I have lots to comment on all it.
Mostly though…. it’s of local interest
and as kept this Phoenician searching through 60 years.

You can be a serious Dutch Hunter and go tackle those mountains or do it as a armchair historian.
Lots of sources on the net and GPS images.

Search on….

Ed


escholarship.org/uc/item/3jt748vt#page-1

[mohs]

I’ve spent a lot of time tracking those canals. Amazing that the Hohokam did it without metal. Just stick & stones.
Most are now underground. But I found the head gate of Dutch’s Ditch.
That was the canal that Jacob Waltz was last known to do some digging in Phoenix.
And wherever he dug--- I want to .

[spiceman]

My aunt and uncle live down there and we visited. We went for a ride and they said lets go to "a mountain" we all laughed because they are all a mountain.
Went by a mountain close to the Arizone college and it had the letter A on one side of the mountain, from top to bottom.
They said that's "A" mountain. You had to be there but it was funny.

[mohs]

Hey Dave

I climbed Barnes Butte this morning
Took lots of pictures. Mostly vistas
Of local interest only



I wanted to more closly inspect the composition of the Buttes.
Clastic. Mostly granite. Huge chunks. Boulders even.
Embedded into the sedimentary red matrix

Amazing how loess (loose) that sedimentary mix is.
I can pick it out of the mountain- side
with my hands.
It crumbles easily.

Must be evidence of a once humongous mudslide/landslide ?
From massive mountains that no longer exist?
Filled in the valley with fertile soil.
That why the Hohokam-- if they only could figure out a canal system –
would have prime land for farming.


Anyway I’m no geologist
(and I do like that Cosmik Debris theory )

So I’ll leave the analysis to the more qualified.
Thanks for the suggestion to take a hike
I enjoyed it

EdMohs

[1dave]

mohs - What I'm interested in is the mud(?) flow out of the cave areas.

The photos in the book suggest granite hills with a thick mud topping just thick enough to cover all but liquid enough to pour out of some pockets for a short (several hundred feet) distance. it seems to have covered only the high places, but the low places may have been covered with other sediments.

[mohs]

Yep Dave
The melt theory
But that not what I observe, particularly
Of course, I don’t have the geological acumen of Petersen


But I do wonder where the red matrix binding,
which embeds the granite clastics into the buttes originates from?
Is it from the massive abrasive grinding of granite
occurring from this humungous landslide?
Combined with prodigious amount of fluids.
Floods!!
Colluvial soils!
Catastrophic Noahic Upheavals!
Talk about slurry !


Plus What role did the Aeolian soil theory play??

[mohs]

I do have a question for you Dave


I took the book back to library yesterday.
I’m starting to kick myself for that.
It was from the Mesa library.
Not as easy for me to access as say the Phoenix library
which I’m at practically everyday.

Anyway as I recall the pictures that Petersen took of the melt area & icicle drippings were from a distance.
Is this correct? Why was this? Why not a close up to inspect?
One explanation is that- that part of Barnes Butte is on government defense land! National armory!
Not accessible!

You can see that on the map you posted.
There is a big story behind that. But I best not divulge it here

That said:

Recall above that I mentioned on my hike this morning
I could easily pick out this red matrix from the butte.
Basically with my fingers.
Easily dug out and crumbles finely

Wouldn’t the ‘melt area’ of that red matrix be of different consistency?
Wouldn’t that particular area be solidified and melded together?
Not easily picked away or crumbly?

Do I understand Petersen correctly that the melt was from the comet?
Wasn’t he saying the melt froze quickly?
Was it heat that caused the melt??
Or was mud flowing and for some reason just solidified quickly in its path ?
from some yet unexplained force?

[1dave]

mohs and metalsmith , last night I think I came up with an answer.

Edit 7/24/18: End of last Ice Age Floods.
A thousand year dust storm capable of carrying large rocks colliding with a thousand year rain storm = 10,000 year mud fall!

Like a too thick icing on a cake, top drying out, too moist inside at less supported areas pouring out.





Note the people at the bottom of 57 for dimensions!

[mohs]

Thanks Dave!!!
Those are some valuable pictures you posted!
I really appreciate it!

I do believe you’re onto the truth
10000year haboob w/a Noahic mud flow cataclysm

I’m going to have go up there soon
and follow your line of thinking
I didn’t concentrate my photos on the mudflow caves
This is my best shot
Presently

[1dave]

Thanks Ed! Anxiously waiting for more - Mostly.

[metalsmith]

Apr 21, 2017 8:59:37 GMT -5 1dave said:

mohs and metalsmith , last night I think I came up with an answer.

A thousand year dust storm capable of carrying large rocks colliding with a thousand year rain storm = 10,000 year mud fall!

Like a too thick icing on a cake, top drying out, too moist inside at less supported areas pouring out.





Note the people at the bottom of 57 for dimensions!

Well I don't think you're wide of the mark here; then again , in parts I think you are wide of the mark.

Think of the force needed to lift the larger clasts (described elsewhere mohs as some being / approaching boulders. Just what would be required to make those babies fly? Alternatively mud flows are well known agent for transporting boulders. Youtube will help out by demonstrating present-day equivalents.





I'm not sure how you have pegged these sediments as aeolian. The authoritative sources I've seen suggest these are debris flows resulting in breccia. Perhaps there are aeolian components? There are present-day equivalents for this:


Meteorologically the chance of a 1000 yr rainstorm colliding with a 1000 year dust-storm is very low. Of course, assuming statistical independence the likelihood is a product of the independent variables, thereby 1/1,000,000 years. The chance of a 1/1,000,000 year combo happening is very close to 1 i.e. a certainty in only a 5,000,000 period of which there are many such 5ma periods over a geological epoch.

However, what does a 1/1000 year storm look like? Well the relationship of increasing magnitude / reducing frequency (increasing rarity) is approximated closely by a log-scale. River flow can be generalised as doubling with a power-increase to the exponent, i.e. from 10 to 100 year rarity or from 100 to 1000. I don't know what your Q10 storms look like and you may even have seen a Q100; there's a roughly 1/5 chance of this occurring in a 100-year period. I'm not sure how the relationship stacks up for wind, but some severe amount of energy would be required to make the boulders take off. Aeolian deposits are forming in present day China, but the wind is generally not laden with rocks, even if dust-storms are noted.

The flows that created this sediment were probably landslide, if dry, fluvial or alternatively submarine avalanches (I don't know enough about the setting). Either way they were highly energetic and turbulent. They will no doubt have been rare events. I don't think we need to consider aeolian influences as additional. If there are aeolian components, then reworking is the much-more-likely candidate for incorporating them. A rare (severe) storm event could be enough to form a debris flow and precipitate (pun intended) a breccia. Debris flow deposits are unlikely to include aeolian sediments outside of re-working. The reason for this stems from the meteorological difference between dry dust-laden air and moisture laden storms: a cushioning effect would be effectively pushing the dry dust air mass in front of the storm.

[mohs]

Thanks metalsmith for the insights !

I realize you’re out of the loop in this discussion
as it based on a theory described in the book.
I enjoyed the book & author's theory

but right now I’m at stalemate

Though leaning towards a tremendous mudslide/landslide
from previous (massive) mountains that no longer exist.
That seems to be the most logical explanation.

If you’re interested in geological survey of this area
I offer this

Subsurface Geology of the Easternmost Phoenix Basin - Stephen J ...
reynolds.asu.edu/pubs/phx_basin_subsurface_final.pdf
by SJ Reynolds - ‎2002 -

Interpreted map of bedrock geology below the basin fill and Salt River Gravels ...
The bedrock pediment surface is exposed in Papago Park, but becomes buried to ...


Its pretty intense study
I think you guys would enjoy
it may clear up some anomalies

its a pdf file
If the link doesn’t work
you can google it
should get you there
let me know...

[mohs]

Yes!!
This is all Pre-Phoenix
even before ol'mohs time.... m stly

[1dave]

metalsmith - precisely!

What happened on December 31 1860?

Petersen was (is?) a very precise physicist. After diligent research he tied three extremely unusual occurrences together. Easter Island, Cibola, and Nebraska.



The Great Comet of 1860 passed within 0.42 AUs from Earth on 30 November 1680 traveling 186,000 mph.
Earth entered it's tail (estimated to be 30,000,000 miles in length) 31 days later.

www.jwwerner.com/history/Comet.html
Three observations on comets are recorded in history, agreeing in remarkable circumstances with the comet of 1680: - one in the 44th year before Christ; another in the consulate of Lampadius and Orestes, about the year of Christ 531; and the third in the reign of Henry I. of England, in the year 1106. These dates are nearly at equal distances of times, namely, 575 years; which is also the period between 1106 and 1681. Hence Dr. Edmund Halley conjectured that these might be successive appearances of one and the same comet, revolving about the sun in the period of about 575 years. If this conjecture is well founded, this comet may be expected again, after finishing the same period, about the year 2255.

Using the 575 year period, William Whiston, a contemporary and disciple of the great Isaac Newton believed that the comet of 1680 had literally grazed the earth after the fall of Eden, triggering the Noachian Deluge (Noah's Flood) in 2346 BC.

1. The people of Easter Island wrote:

In the days of Rokoroku He Tau the sky fell
Fell from above onto the earth.
The people cried out. The sky has fallen ...

Large numbers of their statues were buried.



2. Destruction of Cibola and the weird covering of granite in Pre-Phoenix - Previously discussed.



3. Large sphere in Nebraska.



Are winds of 186.000 mph (3,100 mp Minute, 51 mp second) fast enough?

[gemfeller]

Maybe I'm getting into this late and uninformed, but have you checked out this link?

www.gemland.com/geohistory.htm

Its simplified overview seems to attribute the clastic material to an orogeny that built mountains so steep they were subject to great mudflows and avalanches.

I bought the Cibola book and have read about 1/8 of it. I'd be further along but Ed mentioned the book by Alvarez which I downloaded to my Kindle and can't put down. I live and breathe Big History and have endless admiration for Alvarez and his work. I'm hoping the book will tie a few more loose ends together.

[1dave]

Welcome Rick!

The photos of McDermett Butte have my mind boggled!

Each investigator has unique filters. If enough become involved, the truth will out.

With the comet theory I was thinking a single chunk but that has to be wrong. Comets are mostly debris collections of material similar to earth's surface and hard to identify after it impacts - that could be at a very slow speed, especially if it is traveling the same direction as earth.

I am now thinking many chunks colliding along the tail and earth's rotation path at much slower speeds.