scottyh
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2007
Posts: 181
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Post by scottyh on Aug 11, 2009 3:21:49 GMT -5
Just a quick one, (I don't want to rain on you parade) whats the output of that motor,.... Just that all the flat laps I have seen and used have a fair amount of grunt behind them... 1/3-1 hp... Mind you the laps I use tend to have 24 to 36 in cast plates that were an inch thick
Cheers Scott
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scottyh
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2007
Posts: 181
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Post by scottyh on Jul 27, 2009 0:18:01 GMT -5
Hi Conrock,
I agree... if its not ready then just keep it back. I never throw anything out however, I just keep it in the rough barrel and keep on grinding. and pick the individual stones out as they come right. As such I can never really say that came from batch 1, 2 or 10 even. I just have a contiuous process. You may never get a finished stone out of junk, but junk is really useful grinding filler at the rough stage (esp. if you are using large drums). If its ready in 4 days its ready and if its ready in 6 months its ready and if it is ground to dust it is ground to dust,
Cheers Scott
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scottyh
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2007
Posts: 181
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Post by scottyh on Jul 24, 2009 0:09:16 GMT -5
Nice.. if you don't mind me asking where did you purchase the rough from
Cheers Scott
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scottyh
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2007
Posts: 181
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Post by scottyh on Jul 22, 2009 14:26:52 GMT -5
Looking good Mel...
I do exactley the same thing. As only I tumble agate and pet wood I have a rough tumblng drum and run it constantly. Once a week I open it up, clean it out, take out what needs to be taken out then replace the grit (and agate that has been removed) then fire it up again. The material that was removed then goes into the bin until I have enough for the next stage.
The big thing for people to remember is the rough grind takes time to do well. I have had material in the drum for 6+ months until I was happy with it.
On the other hand... If people are happy and pround of what they hace done let them be happy..... and just give then gentle encouragement .... Eventually they will look at a a top quality finish and think to themselves... I like that and how can I do that.... Thats when you give then the advice that they need.
Cheers Scott
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scottyh
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2007
Posts: 181
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Post by scottyh on Jun 14, 2009 19:50:39 GMT -5
Hi Bob... You definitely can have a direct drive type of machine..... I know of at least two of them (home built) and they work very well and have been running for years. The secret behind them is getting the right motor. If you have big bucks you can buy a shaker motor. It is essentially an electric motor with adjustable eccentric weights on the shaft already built into the unit. They are used on industrial shaker tables/screens etc. However, they are really expensive. I looked at buying a nice new ¼ hp unit that would do what I wanted and it was up around the 4-500 US dollar mark.... The second option that I have seen in use is a pool pump motor with a flange on it. This was for a smaller lap so didn’t have the biggest of weights on it. The owner had been using it for 20 odd years and had very few problems.
Basically the unit was a smaller version of mine with a suspended frame that held two plates. Top plate was the grinding plate made out of steel with the edges of the bowl being made out of the sides of a plastic 44 gallon drum that was glued and screwed in place. The second plate was held on the frame approximately 100 mm below the first. This was made out of ply wood with a 40-50 mm hole in the centre of the plate that the electric motors shaft went through. The motor was bolted to the plate via its flange. The weights for this unit were attached directly to the shaft. Just remember with this design you probably don’t need a whole lot of weight.
So yes a direct drive vibra-lap can be made however you need to get the right electric motor. I have seen them made with 1/4 motors out of old style washing machines... but these don’t last (weeks maybe months if you are lucky).
Cheers Scott
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scottyh
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2007
Posts: 181
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Post by scottyh on Jun 9, 2009 19:04:21 GMT -5
Hi Dave and Garrett, The vibra-lap is going really well , the only thing that I would do differently is that I would construct the lap so that the pan sits closer to the ground. That would make it easier to get it in and out of the fame for cleaning. Due to the pans weight I don’t remove it to clean it. I just mop the used slurry out of it then dry it. Once the pan is dry I vacuum it. I then scrub the pan out again with out with fresh water and a scrubbing brush and dry it. This is followed by another vacuuming and one last wipe done with a very clean cloth. If you are scrupulous about doing this then you will have no problems with stray grit. I have had no problems to date and hey if you do it’s just a day or so lost. Other than that I am very happy with the way it performs. I can supply a PDF of the rough plans you should have no problem following them (you just need to make some decisions on bearing sizes etc). Just drop me you email address and I will get them to you and answer any questions you have to the best of my ability. A couple of things you can't see from the pictures 1) You can't see the bumper ring in the pan.- for that I am using a ring of garden irrigation pipe (polythene), 2) I did put in a bracket in case the tension of the drive belt tilted the pan too far out of level (this unit does have adjustable feet to take care of a small amount of tilt). The plan was to use a spring and turnbuckle to take care of this should it happen but the unit runs so well I have decided just to leave things alone…. If it isn’t broke don’t try to fix it. 3) The amount of weight on the shaft: I have had to experiment with this but in short I filled the pan with water then just kept adding weight to the shaft in the form of brass washers then switching the unit on and watching the surface of the water in the pan for a 10-15 seconds until I had a nice even ripple over the whole surface. I then put some agate in the pan and watched for a couple of minutes to make sure that they would circulate around the pan evenly. Then we were off. Now to answer the questions you asked. The pan: None of the pans that I have seen on homemade vibra-laps in New Zealand have been milled and they all seem to work very well. So I don’t think that you need them. Milling the plate may speed things up somewhat but I am happy. It takes me about 7 days to complete the grind (see below for the methods) and have the butt ends/slabs ready for polishing. However, it is critical that the surface of the pan is dead flat. When the pan was made it was initially clamped to a flat welding bench with a 51 mm (2 inch) thick surface and the welding was done in very short runs to avoid warping (remember this is a 12 mm thick piece of plate) the plate. Each month when I have down time I run a straight edge over the pan to make sure there are no high or low spots. If there are (and there haven’t been to date) the hammer comes out and some flattening takes place (that’s what others do). Tension on the drive belt: See point 2 above. Initially this was a concern for me but then looking at this from a practical point of view the there shouldn’t be a lot of tension on the belt. If you think about it you are just driving a weighted shaft at approx 1440 rpm (in my case) so there isn’t a lot of movement there to cause the belt to jump off. So when the unit was assembled I had just had enough tension on the belt to make sure the shaft was driven (no weights at this point) without any slippage. This arrangement seems to have worked very well and I haven’t had any problems with belt tension. But just in case (and its included on the plans) I had a plan B but haven’t needed it. Methods I have one main method (method 1) that I use to prepare agate and petrified wood slabs and butt ends. I have also tried a second method (method 2) that appeared to work just as well but I am just not that comfortable with it so I stick to number 1. Method 1) pour approx 1-1.5 l water into the pan, switch lap on and place ¾-1 cup of 80 grit silicon-carbide into the pan. Place agate and their protective rings into the pan and watch to make sure they circulate freely. Leave for 3-4 days (in hot weather may need to add some more water). After three days I take the agate out and wash it and check to see that it is flat and all saw marks etc have been removed. If slabs or butt ends aren’t flat or still have saw marks etc repeat aforementioned process. If the agate etc is ready for the next stage then clean the pan out as described above. I then change the bumper ring (I have separate rings for the two stages) pour approx 1-1.5 l water into the pan, switch lap on and place ¾-1 cup of 600 silicon-carbide grit into the pan. Place agate and their protective rings into the pan and watch to make sure they circulate freely. Leave for 3-7 days (in hot weather may need to add some more water). I say up to seven days because I have just left them but the material is usually ready to go after 2-3 days. I then polish the material on a flat lap with a carpet pad and tin oxide because I feel that I get better control over the end product compared with using the Vibra-lap with a polishing pad. Method 2) pour approx 1-1.5 l water into the pan, switch lap on and place ¾-1 cup of 80 grit silicon-carbide into the pan. Place agate and their protective rings into the pan and watch to make sure they circulate freely. Leave for 2-3 days (in hot weather may need to add some more water). Check and if ready i.e. no saw marks etc then do the following pour approx 1-1.5 l water into the pan, switch lap on and place 1-1.5 cups of 80 silicon-carbide grit (yes that’s 80 grit) into the pan. Place agate and their protective rings into the pan and watch to make sure they circulate freely. Leave for 7-8 days (in hot weather may need to add some more water). Remove the agate etc wash then polish. This method works due to the 80 grit breaking down and I know at least 2 people that use it exclusively. I am still not too sure about it but they swear by it and their results do speak for themselves. Well I hope this helps all and am quite happen to answer any questions and pass on plans Cheers Scott
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scottyh
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2007
Posts: 181
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Post by scottyh on Jun 8, 2009 19:50:37 GMT -5
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scottyh
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2007
Posts: 181
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Post by scottyh on May 7, 2009 23:38:21 GMT -5
Number 1 is probably an agate nodule from Agate creek in Qld
Cheers Scott
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scottyh
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2007
Posts: 181
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Post by scottyh on Mar 7, 2009 14:41:53 GMT -5
As a good rule of thumb I always put 10% of the rock weight in as grit. Never had any problems remembering that one and works for me.
Cheers Scott
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scottyh
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2007
Posts: 181
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Post by scottyh on Feb 27, 2009 15:53:48 GMT -5
Not really into mass production.... Just trying to catch up on a number of years collecting.
I really do have to hand it to the guy who did the welding... he did a beautiful job. I have three more projects currently on the drawing board, another vide for polishing (I thought I would just get another bowl made up but then realised that I won't be up for swapping them around all the time), a expando drum polisher for the 1000 grit clean up before polishing (I have all the parts and am ready to assemble), and a 18 inch saw (this one is on the drawing board and will probably start on it in 6 months).
Then there is the tumblers. Have a really good set up now but have just built a drum capable of taking 80 odd kgs. Just assembling the materials for the rollers will get pics of it once it is running
Cheers Scott
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scottyh
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2007
Posts: 181
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Post by scottyh on Feb 26, 2009 19:13:57 GMT -5
Opps missed some code there The springs and hanger A close up of the motor mount, allows for adjustment in all directions Another close up of shaft assembly (no weights)
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scottyh
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2007
Posts: 181
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Post by scottyh on Feb 26, 2009 19:11:44 GMT -5
Hi all, Finally got the pictures uploaded onto photo-bucket so here we go the frame after it was welded up picture of the weighted shaft assembly The springs and hanger A close up of the motor mount, allows for adjustment in all directions Another close up of shaft assembly (no weights) The bowl The beast in my shed all set up and ready to go An finally loaded up and away
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scottyh
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2007
Posts: 181
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Post by scottyh on Feb 25, 2009 23:49:01 GMT -5
Hi all, The beast is running ;D ;D ;D.... Unfortunately I have misplaced my cable for my camera but rest assured I will have pictures posted to the board within 24 hours. Just to update you all I have built (with the hand of my local welder a 30 inch vibro-lap.) Just got it back today and have loaded it up and flicked the switch and the agate but ends are going round and around the plate.... Fantastic I brought all of the stock as scrap except for the plate which is 1 inch think steel plate. The motor is 1/4 hp which I got second hand. I designed it myself after looking at 5 or 6 differnt designs (most of which were home built, which is what the average NZ rock hound has to do as no one stocks equipment off the shelf here). I have the plans available if anyone wants them just give me a shout and will get the pics on line asap Cheers All Scott
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scottyh
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2007
Posts: 181
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Post by scottyh on Jan 20, 2009 0:03:36 GMT -5
Hi All, Just a heads up.. I have finally got all the pieces for my vibrio-lap brought cut out and and ready to be welded up and assembled. As soon as it is done I will send the pictures through. But all I can say is that I am happy with progress to date. The plate will be 750 mm diam and over all the whole thing will cost approx US$ 250-300 (all new materials with the exception of the motor which is second hand).... cant wait to get those but ends and slabs onto it.... Looking forward to sending the pics when it gets back from the shop Cheers ScottyH
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scottyh
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2007
Posts: 181
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Post by scottyh on Aug 11, 2008 19:42:18 GMT -5
I know how it feels, I haven't been tumbling for about 8 weeks now because of a combination of equipment failure and an extended period of travel. Back home now and have rebuilt the tumbler so ready to kick off the fine, pre and polish barrels again on my 3 x 15 lb barrel homebuilt. My 50 lb rough tumbler was a bit small (I like to tumble the odd large agate) so I have just had another barrel built for me. My thoughts were that with a larger tumbler I will get through the rough a bit quicker (I am really fussy about moving material on and most of it just disappears in the rough). The big problem is that I was just a little greedy and have ended up with a monster that takes about 150 pounds so I have had to upgrade the rollers and bearings (and the motor maybe). As soon as it gets rolling I will get the photos uploaded for every one to have a look at . Cheers Scott
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scottyh
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2007
Posts: 181
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Post by scottyh on Jun 17, 2008 9:29:39 GMT -5
Hi all, I am in need of some help here. I am over here from New Zealand for a couple of weeks based out of Columbus Ohio. I always try to get hold of some material that relates to the area that I have traveled in. Therefore and am looking to purchase a small amount of North American agate to take home with me (luggage restrictions etc). Any suggestions??? BTW I have just been in Poland and manage to get hold of a contact in a club. They were most generous and I have ended up with a lot of material to drag home to NZ with me so don't have a whole heap of room no ;D Thanks in advance Cheers Scott
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scottyh
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2007
Posts: 181
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Post by scottyh on Apr 2, 2008 18:15:08 GMT -5
Hi all, Awhile back I sent the following link through. If you go to the equipment/machine section you will see that Vince uses a couple of cement mixers (a large one and a small one). All I can say is that the results speak for themselves. www.birdlingsmuseum.741.com/Cheers Scott
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scottyh
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2007
Posts: 181
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Post by scottyh on Mar 11, 2008 16:37:47 GMT -5
Hi woodyrock, always good to hear from an expat, Basically the the greenstone rules are if you are in a non restricted area than as long as you can carry it out on your person then you can take it. i.e. no helicopters 4wds etc. You can still get some good sized pieces of Agate at Birdlings. I take it that you meant some of the valleys up round Gebbies pass region when you talked Sign of the Takahe about they are the only other places that I know of on Banks Peninsula where you can find agate .. can still (if you can get access find agate there). Yep if you know where to dig in the Mount Somers region you can sure find some beauties go well Cheers Scott
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scottyh
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2007
Posts: 181
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Post by scottyh on Mar 6, 2008 18:39:39 GMT -5
Hi all I have been lurking for a while,
I have been into tumbling for a 2 or 3 years now. I use all home built gear and have a 45 lb tumbler running all the time with my rough on the go all the time and 3-4 15 lb barrels with the fine grind and polish stages as needed. I tend to use 36 grit in the big barrel and check every one to two days with a wash up once a fortnight and remove and move on pieces as needed. Most of my rough is sourced locally from Birdlings flat on Banks Peninsula (all agate) or from the Canterbury foothills (mainly agate but some petrified wood as well). I tumble pieces up to slightly large than a softball. Also slab and pieces from about 10 cm in size up at the local clubrooms will post pics next time I remember to get a camera out during a wash up. My current project is the building of a vibrolap (800 mm diam). When I get that done will be able to catch up on some of the larger pieces of agate I have laying around.
To keep things interesting I have included this link to the website one of the members of our local club (http://www.birdlingsmuseum.741.com/).. Vince has been a dedicated tumbler and collector for many years and has a fantastic collection. Apart from the photos of some wonderfully polished material (you really need to go and see it). There is an interesting section about the recovery of a 68 kg (153 lb) agate nodule found in the Canterbury. Unfortunately the biggest nodule I have found at the site was a mere 22 kg (49 lb), however there is always next time.
Cheers
ScottyH
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scottyh
starting to spend too much on rocks
Member since November 2007
Posts: 181
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Post by scottyh on Feb 19, 2008 21:34:18 GMT -5
Hi All, I have been sitting reading the board for a while now and I will stick my toe in the water and get ready for it to be bitten off. I Tumble a lot of agate and petrified wood. I see a lot of people on this group getting real complicated when they don’t need to be. However, before I go on I do admit that each run is slightly different and largely dependant on the material being tumbled. Therefore………. My advice is if you are tumbling agate I wouldn't bother with a pre-polish after a 500 or 600 grit stage (and here is where I wince a little). If the job has been done correctly at 500 grit stage (and all previous stages) then all you should need to do to get a really good polish (and I mean a sunglasses needed type shine) is wash the tumbled material (agate in my case) put it back into a clean Barrel (and I mean clean) run for 12-24 hours with borax then 3-4 days in Tin oxide polish. I polish agate two ways. The first is in a 50 pound barrel with 36 grit (a big cupful for every 10 pounds) for a week. Look at if every 1-2 days for the first week and see how it goes. Once the load has reached the desired state then tip ou about half the slurry and recharge with 36 grit and run until the grit completely broken down and a sample stone has that nice frosted matt finish. This can take up to 4 weeks. I then wash the load up, check the agate take out any stones that are not up to scratch and go straight to the polish stage in a 30 pound barrel that is dedicated for this operation only. In my smaller barrels (15 pounders) run a fairly standard 36 grit until ready to move on, 220 grit for 7 days then 7 days 600 grit and 4 days polish (very rarely do I let the polish go for seven days). Good washes between grit stages are an absolute. My advice is get good grit, cleanliness is an absolute (there can be no short cuts), keep things as simple as possible and have a lot patience in the initial rough grind. If it take 10 repeats to get a stone perfect for the next stage then let it go. personally Have never used pellets very rarely will I thicken the load (remember only talking agate here) and if I do I use clean white paper. And I get very good results… remember sun glasses needed type shine Well I said my piece…. Hopefully I haven’t offended any one… Cheers Scott
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