A manatee rib-NOT-too much marrow

[helens]

Parfive, the question was about the accuracy of dating... not whether some of us have Neanderthal genes (some do). Carbon 14 dating is accurate to 60,000 years, so fossils within 60,000 years can be dated directly if they still have carbon.

Where the dating gets iffy is the claim that our first homo sapiens form appeared at 195,000 years. How can they know that?

"IWO, the tadpole is living proof the frog crossed the road" ?

[parfive]

Just a couple of shows about old bones I watched last week, Helen, and your mitochondrial DNA popped up at El Sidrón.

[jamesp]

Hells bells parfive,the dearest wife has lazy eyes on Mommy and Daddy's side of the family(i find them sexy).They also have double cousins(it's not as bad as it sounds).I always get a headache trying to look them in the eyes at family reunions.If you keep walking in circles around one of them you will get close to catching up to the lazy eye.They are not to fond of my lazy eye theories,or walking around them in circles.

[jamesp]

DNA,age dating,are complicated.Age dating has a huge problem in that there are no exact reference points.They can not find a 3000 year old datum to compare their claims.Much less 6000,14,000,100,000 datums.DNA may seal the age of organic human preservations in ice,peat,tar,carbonate,etc.
I think the relationship of the ice age and Florida has some keys to the mystery.The fact that Florida is so flat makes it sensitive to changes ocean levels.These level changes make Florida much larger and turns rivers into creeks.Creating human occupation out into the ocean.And inland water can be infrequent and spaced very far apart.
The Suwanee River is one of the richest sites of paleo aged artifacts{auto-correct: MOV files not allowed}ing south from there flint and coral sources quickly are not available.Paleo artifacts are a sure sign that man occupied the land around or in the river.Archeologists are in strong agreement that paleo aged spears and knives are the oldest of the oldest.Based on digs performed in human campsites.The paleo points are on the bottom of all other artifact bearing layers.Just look into these 'points' as they call them.
Where have these paleo points been found?In ancient camps at the bottom of artifact bearing layers.What part of the United States?Keep in mine that islands,keys,points,land bridges,high spots,shoals in rivers are sites of repeated occupation-over and over and over etc. All over the United States.These digs have been perfomed-ALL OVER THE US.And paleo man's points are always on the bottom layer.Ohio Louisiana Tennessee Virgina Florida New York etc.So we have a common ground-the bottom layer-the oldest of the oldest
Look up these points,they are the rarest.Artifact hunters will typically find 1 paleo spear point in 100-200 spear points.I have found atleast 4.I got a big collection of spear points over 30 years,only a few paleo finds..HELL YEA-the older the point,the older the age,most likely the lower human population-the rarer the point.The proportion works out 1/200 of the population used 1/200 of that style point.
All this talk about paleo points.What's w/that.When an artifact collecter finds a Dalton,Folsom,Greenbrier,Clovis,Cumberland you will hear a loud scream of happiness.It is the trophy of trophies.Any backyard jackass artifact hunter like me will agree that.Any backwoods dude knows the extreme rarity of these 'proven to be old points'.When i walk into Joe's Coffee shop out in the country and look at his picture frame of dozens of points the first thing i do is look for the Daltons and Clovis'.Rarely does he have one.
So back to the Suwanee River
1)Full of high flow springs in a very dry area of Florida
2)Full of silicified coral/algae/mud to make paleo points out of
3)Great ice age preservations
4)Low water levels during ice age creating habitat for paleo occupation(camps in the bottom of the river ?)-that's what they found.
5)Way high percentage of paleo artifacts-way high
A society or collection of the oldest artifacts would suggest a society or collection of the paleo folks.Yippiyeyayay!Florida ridge is man killer.Water is rare and sand brush will entrap and kill you via dehydration.You better believe those guys were partying in those pristine springs exposed in the acid carved limstone bottoms of the Suwanee River.Party time-break out the Togas(is that Rome?).

[jamesp]

This is a link of great simplicity.The paleo technology has a huge following
bama.ua.edu/~alaarch/prehistoricalabama/paleoindian.htm
It was the first link that came up.Google search was not exhaustive.See the map of Alabama.Notice the north section of the state is peppered with paleo sites.That is the Tennessee River.Another paleo site gold mine.I have awesome collection from one island on that river.No paleo points but lots of archaic and woodland.The density of points was one of the highest i ever found.Excellent digs performed due to so many layered occupations.See Quad site.

The Tennessee river is an amazing civilization location for ancient man.On the banks of this river where Chatanooga is,20 miles of stone boxed shallow graves.All destroyed for farming i think.But recorded.The Suwanne was a smaller version but identical in paleo relationships.

[jamesp]

3 links down.Son of a gun-look at that.A paleo point in Maryland
www.jefpat.org/diagnostic/Maryland_Projectile_Points/FindingAidsandImagePages/FindingAids/PaleoIndian/middlepaleopoint.html

[jamesp]

Now let's sneak out of the dirty ole eastern US into the west where smart people get away from eastern smog.You will find the westerners also have fluted points.They are more likely to call them folsoms.Those western indians were arrogant like the people from the west on this forum,using all their high grade agates and jaspers to show off their points,cabs and tumbles.
www.nebraskastudies.org/0200/frameset_reset.html?http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0200/stories/0201_0111.html

Forgot to mention paleo points are often fluted.Modern day combat knives have flutes called blood grooves.They are there to let the blood out,when stabbed into a body.Could the indian have fluted his points to let the blood out?A common speculation.

Another very impotant discovery-fluted points of the folsom variety found in Folsom,New Mexico with......giant extinct buffaloe

[jamesp]

Oh!I just killed a mastadon!Let's have a party.What to do with an animal that weighs as much as a fire truck.The eye won't even fit in the microwave.
Seems to me that i read where they dug a deep hole next to the mastadon and built a large fire in the hole.Once a large bed of coals were established they rolled the beast into the hole and probably covered him up with soil/limbs/leaves.
After the meat was 'done' they carved tunnels thru him and ate him-meat caves-gotta LOL.

It seems that this really happened and the site was found by archeologists.A big pile of coals,then a big pile of mastadon bones,and most important, flint tools and scratches on the bones proving humans ate the beast.
That may have been at Folsom NM.I am not sure.But i am sure they found flint tools in and around mastadon putting man and mastadon together alive at the same time.

[jamesp]

Here is that damn fluted point again-Folsom New Mexico.

Where's the bones!!!!The article is baffled by the lack of human bones.Looked like they were there to eat a giant extinct bison-not to die.
www.folsomvillage.com/FolsomManSite.html

SOS over and over this paleo stuff...

[jamesp]

I get kinda excited when i find piles of chipped up coral that about had to be chipped up by ancient fella.Like goose bumps.Because i feel confident that very early man left his signs behind.Rock stays-a great forensic tool.A great source of evidence.When i find the skins removed of of a coral head in the Suwanee River for instance to get to the core for artifact manufacture it says a lot.And the deep mineral stains tell me that those pieces were removed many years ago.The same skins-top lense,side walls,root point,piles and piles and piles(like The Who would sing).Requiring huge effort and great skill.
Kinda proving that the area was heavily populated for a long time.

[jamesp]

This archeology approach is a 'keep it simple' method.At least there is a lot of repeatability across the US. with this paleo subject.It fits into my findings and a half a dozen other hobby people i know.Too many people in agreement-imagine that.
The sandia points were limited to a cave in New Mexico.Some of the points were fluted,others one sided like the fellow had a bad hand.It was a single occurance which means less to me.They freaked on that one because of a 20-30,000 carbon date.Later i think they decided foreign materials gave false readings.It is hard to test w/that method due to contaminents.I am skeptical so i lean toward this layer method with tangible outcome but lacking quantitative aging.5000-15,000 years would not surprise me at all.Lack of fossils makes most feel that real old man is hiding real well or nonexistant.

[jamesp]

I wonder if other countries use this approach...

[helens]

Well, I have to run til later tonite but I'm getting more curious about this, that's for sure.

[jamesp]

Cool.It is my way of understanding early man when out collecting

[Deleted]

I wonder what an average days food was for one of your 'paleo' guys/gals. I'll bet they were trim, lean and strong.

[parfive]

NARRATOR: 
But we do know what some of the family ate during their lives at El Sidron.
The teeth of five family members have been analysed and calcified dental plaque removed.

JOHN HAWKS:
 On the surfaces of teeth of any kind of human we’ll sometimes find calcified plaque: Your dentist scrapes that off, you know it’s hard work to get it off of there but what it’s doing is capturing little parts of the food that you eat and those little particles include microfossils from that you can tell what kinds of food plants were being eaten

NARRATOR:
 Molecules of cooked grains and also traces of bitter green plants were found.
The presence of bitter plants has led to speculation that these people were using plants as medicines.

JOHN HAWKS: 
El Sidron puts this really interesting perspective on this new evidence about plant utilisation because when we look at those people we would initially look at them and say Look at the breadth of resources that they are using, they are masters of knowing what is in the landscape
But at the same time we know that they are in a population that has times of real desperation so when we look at the evidence of these bitter plants on their teeth, what we begin to think is, oh, maybe they’re really stretching to the limit, trying to get every possible food that they can, and at the end it just didn’t go well for this small group of people:

NARRATOR:
 A family was wiped out in El Sidrón… Eaten by their own kind – perhaps in an act of desperate hunger.

Meanwhile, back in Gibralter, the shrimp cocktail and calamari kept the party goin’ for another 21,000 years.

[jamesp]

They probably lived short hard lives.Bartram got to visit about 1700.He recorded interesting behavior.A small bow that was very accurate-like in the rabbit eye at 15 paces.
Ha to be nothing but blood muscle and bone

[jamesp]

Talking about plant foods parfive,the remedies and medicines of the head waters of the Amazon were recorded in a large volume by europeans.Remedies for a lot of ailments.Where did they record the results on different plant's effects?Think about the experimentation process and the price paid for a bad experiments.
Alligators store deadly bacteria in the surface of their teeth giving the gift of high performance rotting bacteria to the recipient of a bite.
The plaque contents are amazing.That is closing in on what ancient people ate.

[helens]

Parfive, that was a remarkable link, and I not only learned something I really enjoyed it. Answered a lot of questions I had. Thanks for posting it:)!!

[helens]

Here is the full one hour episode of the show Parfive watched. It's pretty incredible:

www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/episodes/caveman-cold-case-watch-the-full-episode/1017/