A manatee rib-NOT-too much marrow

[jamesp]

These are very common in central Florida.Found these on the cental ridge along I-75 here limestone bed rock is exposed.They were laying around after machinery cleared trees away.This one was the biggest around.It is moh 6-7

[helens]

Wut? What IS it?!

As in... how can it possibly be a manatee rib, if manatees were dragged here as a food supply for the Spaniards from the West Indies only 500 years ago or so??

[jamesp]

It has been around a long time.It must have been very common.It is fossilized Helen.If you go out and dig till you hit limestone you will find sharks teeth and dugong bones.They were pumped up when drilling my well at 150 feet down,where the drill hit limerock.
I think it is the oldest animal fossil
www.paleodiscoveries.com/ManateeDugong.html

[Fossilman]

OMG thats totally AWESOME dude!!!!

[helens]

May 14, 2013 21:52:45 GMT -5 jamesp said:

It has been around a long time.It must have been very common.It is fossilized Helen.If you go out and dig till you hit limestone you will find sharks teeth and dugong bones.They were pumped up when drilling my well at 150 feet down,where the drill hit limerock.
I think it is the oldest animal fossil
www.paleodiscoveries.com/ManateeDugong.html

James, Manatees have not existed in Florida long enough to become fossils.... unless a bone can fossilize in 500 years (I thought fossils were millions of years old). They are native to the West Indies, and were towed here as a meat source. Manatees, while beloved in Florida, are not Florida natives...

Ohh... I see, it's a related animal called the Dugong. Hrm. Wonder what happened to Dugongs in Florida?? NM, just looked it up... that's another name for manatee. There ARE no indigenous manatees in Florida at all. Now I'm really puzzled.

[jamesp]

Not.
"The Florida manatee (Trichechus manatus latirostris), a subspecies of the West Indian manatee, is the largest of all living sirenians. Florida manatees inhabit the most northern limit of sirenian habitat. Over three decades of research by universities, governmental agencies, and NGOs, has contributed to understanding of Florida manatee ecology and behavior. They are found in freshwater rivers, in estuaries, and in the coastal waters of the Gulf of Mexico and the Atlantic Ocean. Florida manatees may live to be greater than 28 years old in the wild, and one captive manatee"(Wikopedia)
Manatees cruise-Texas,Boston,200 miles up the St John's past my camp to your place in Orlando.Never needed man to assist in their travels.They cover lots of territory.
Many knife handles fashioned out of nonfossilized manatee ribs w/paleo/archaic age coral artifacts attached.Making easy dating of 3000-6000 years old by design of the knapped knife blade.Indians were heavy into manatee as a resource.
I will look into Florida mammal bones and their mineralization.Some interesting stuff.The timing of the ice age,the indian camps out in the ocean,same indian camps in the ice age Suwanee river bottom.The fact that man and mastadon existed together.Mammal bones of saber tooth lion mastadon rhino sloth,all these weird mammals and their timing with humans and the last ice age.The archeologists are starting to change a lot of theory,and new testing equipment is having an impact on old theory.
I would like to ask you how long do you think man has been on earth?A lot of theory has shifted to 8000-10,000 years.Quartz based artifacts categorized by design and the 4 basic depths(ages) of paleo,archaic,woodland and mississipian are starting to reinforce this theory of 10,000 years.That would mean the end of the ice age was when Florida was flooded to it present size(and the indian camps out in the ocean flooded over).--indian camps flooded over--huge significance.And the nuerotic mammals of the ice age died 10,000 years ago.....That is very recent.
These mammal's bones may have mineralized with the mineral apatite.I got to study this.

[jamesp]

This is a technical article on bioapatite.I am looking for layman's terms so i can get it.I talks about new dating process that is apparently very reliable.The Florida enviro w/it's phosphates and other chemicals may open the doors to our age.It is making Darwin and evolution look bad.
Still doing research.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2890843/

[helens]

Years ago, someone told me that manatees were dragged here by Spaniards tied to their ships, as a living food source, from the West Indies... Which would mean that the earliest they could have gotten here was in the 1500s. I never thought to question that, since I didn't really care.

I just looked it up, and they have been in Florida for 45 million years, IF this reference is true (this is a question, because I haven't seen another site give a date):
www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/southflorida/seagrass/manatee.html

"Taxonomy
The manatee population in the United States is concentrated in Florida. These manatees, commonly called Florida manatees, are scientifically referred to as Trichechus manatus latirostris. They are a subspecies of the West Indian manatee (Trichechus manatus). Fossils of these magnificent animals have been found in Florida, dating back 45 million years. It is believe that the manatee evolved from a wading, plant-eating land animal. Its closest land relative is the elephant."

Also:
myfwc.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2511/~/are-manatees-native-to-florida%3F

"Yes, manatees ARE native to Florida. Manatees were not brought to Florida for weed control--this is an urban legend based on a study conducted in the 60's (see below--more information provided in the time line and in the USFWS link ).

Florida's prehistoric records show that the Sirenian species has lived in the waterways along Florida's coast for millions of years. The dugongs were more prominent 15 million years ago until they were replaced by manatees that continued to evolve along with Florida's changing ecosystems.

Our country's historic record shows that manatees were a food source for Florida's native people prior to Columbus' discovery of the New World--manatee bones have been found in refuse heaps all over Florida."

So ok, Dugongs remnants are 15 million years old:).

[helens]

BTW... that bone cross section you found looks like the top of a slice of toast... LOL!

[helens]

May 15, 2013 7:07:09 GMT -5 jamesp said:

This is a technical article on bioapatite.I am looking for layman's terms so i can get it.I talks about new dating process that is apparently very reliable.The Florida enviro w/it's phosphates and other chemicals may open the doors to our age.It is making Darwin and evolution look bad.
Still doing research.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2890843/

Took a look, that's not a new dating method (tho I'm sure that the fossil bone you found could be carbon 14 dated). That paper discusses how to determine climate and biological temperature of the mammal when it was alive.

Fascinating paper, but irrelevant to whether manatees have been in Florida for millions of years. The mere fact that you found the fossil in Florida would prove that however, if that's a confirmed manatee fossil (again, given that manatee fossils have been found here quite a bit, that's a great specimen:)).

[Pat]

Neat! Who sliced it?

[Fossilman]

Dang dude!!!! Where does a guy buy some of that bone...I want one!!! I'm looking for whale bone too,I know its common here,so I'm being fussy on what I want..LOL..When I see it,I'll know,than buy it for my collection..

[jamesp]

I sliced it Pat.It is hard like chert.Hell's bell's-i got a slice laying around here that i polished that is hiding:>I will send you some fossilman.I got a bunch of manatee ribs in Florida.May just send you this one w/heated stuff.

[jamesp]

I beg to differ w/you Helen
Bioapatite dating
tbreen.home.xs4all.nl/PAISN/3-DATING.html
journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/radiocarbon/article/view/16083
www.es.ucsc.edu/~pkoch/pdfs/Koch%20papers/2009/Clementz%20et%2009%20GeolJ%2044-605.pdf

They are carbon 14 dating the bioapatite.

[jamesp]

Helen-this is the animal that the spanish used to pull manatees from the West Indies all the way to Florida.They had an aquatic saddle for the pilot and he carried a small whip to motvate the beast.Known as an aquatic hand elephant.

[Pat]

James, I had been wondering if ancient or modern man cut it. Didn't think ancient man could have done such a clean job.

[jamesp]

Ahh,now i see why you asked.It is turned into silica Pat.So it is (my opinion) before man.Thousands x thousands of pounds of these bones have been found and no human bones at this degree of fossilization.Manatee bones have been found with chert/coral knapped knives but not fossilized like this.I never heard of a human bone over 8,000-10,000 years old.
I feel an attack coming on,grabbing my iron umbrella.

[Deleted]

That is possibly the funniest chimaera I have ever seen, and your captions sells it so well! Dang Jim you are on fire this week!

May 15, 2013 12:17:56 GMT -5 jamesp said:

Helen-this is the animal that the spanish used to pull manatees from the West Indies all the way to Florida.They had an aquatic saddle for the pilot and he carried a small whip to motvate the beast.Known as an aquatic hand elephant.

[Fossilman]

May 15, 2013 13:40:10 GMT -5 jamesp said:

Ahh,now i see why you asked.It is turned into silica Pat.So it is (my opinion) before man.Thousands x thousands of pounds of these bones have been found and no human bones at this degree of fossilization.Manatee bones have been found with chert/coral knapped knives but not fossilized like this.I never heard of a human bone over 8,000-10,000 years old.
I feel an attack coming on,grabbing my iron umbrella.

Not an attack,but an education on human bones my friend..Enjoy the read I did..

www.livescience.com/22529-oldest-bones-modern-humans-asia.html

[bhiatt]

Is there anything you have that isnt cool? This rib bone is great. A perfect specimen.