Pre-Phoenix

[1dave]

Was flooding the reason for building on platforms?

www.archaeologysouthwest.org/what-we-do/information/exhibits/pieces-puzzle/puzzle-piece-1-2/


Illustration of a Hohokam platform mound at Pueblo Grande by Michael Hampshire.

"Between A.D. 450 and 1150, Hohokam homes were “pit houses.” People dug shallow pits and built houses inside. Wooden wall posts and roof beams formed structures that were covered with grass and adobe. These houses were arranged in courtyard groups, such that doorways faced each other and opened onto a common central area. By 1150, people were building rooms above ground. The rooms were connected by walls that enclosed adjacent courtyard spaces. Archaeologists refer to these constructions as compounds."







"Throughout their long occupation of the area, the Hohokam practiced intensive irrigation agriculture. The network of irrigation canals in the Phoenix area was the largest and most complex in ancient North America."

[metalsmith]

Apr 26, 2017 12:29:56 GMT -5 1dave said:

Was flooding the reason for building on platforms?

"Between A.D. 450 and 1150, Hohokam homes were “pit houses.” People dug shallow pits and built houses inside... By 1150, people were building rooms above ground."

I can't see they were regularly flooded and living in pit houses.

[toiv0]

Maybe protection from a flood of undocumented immigrants? They would have to climb the walls.

[1dave]

Apr 26, 2017 14:07:14 GMT -5 metalsmith said:

Apr 26, 2017 12:29:56 GMT -5 1dave said:

Was flooding the reason for building on platforms?

"Between A.D. 450 and 1150, Hohokam homes were “pit houses.” People dug shallow pits and built houses inside... By 1150, people were building rooms above ground."

I can't see they were regularly flooded and living in pit houses.

"Between A.D. 450 and 1150, Hohokam homes were “pit houses.” People dug shallow pits and built houses inside. Wooden wall posts and roof beams formed structures that were covered with grass and adobe. These houses were arranged in courtyard groups, such that doorways faced each other and opened onto a common central area. By 1150, people were building rooms above ground. The rooms were connected by walls that enclosed adjacent courtyard spaces. Archaeologists refer to these constructions as compounds."

Pit houses are cool in the summer and warm in the winter, but after 1150 they got tired of getting flooded out and built above ground.

[mohs]

I’m thinking political.
The Hohokam ball courts were the previous location for social activities.
What researcher classify as the pre-Classic period.

But then the ball courts started to wane in favor of platform mound building.
This was during the Classic period (1100 to 1375) and was becoming the new center of societal congress.
Was elitism starting to rule? a new political hierarchy forming? What changed?

Population were growing. Canals & water resources were spreading out,
Hohokam settlements were getting to big, to concentrated, to successful for the desert environment.
That may be a warning for this monstrosity of modern Phoenix

This narrowing of participation in the community's primary rituals is seen as a fundamental change in Hohokam society. Gregory (1991:183) suggested that the shift from ball courts to mounds was probably accompanied by a "shift in the cosmology and world view of the Hohokam, and that ball courts and platform mounds provide concrete representations of opposing or alternative world views and cosmologies." The ball courts were designed to provide access to a variety of groups, whereas the mound facilities restricted access, presumably serving as loci of esoteric activities (Gregory 1991:181). By the end of the sequence, the platform mounds may have become places for high-status residence. Wilcox (1991:268) characterized this ascendancy as one in which relatively few aspirants garnered the sacred authority to mediate with the gods and assume the ritual functions previously handled by more inclusive religious sodalities.

[metalsmith]

Apr 26, 2017 14:55:33 GMT -5 1dave said:

Apr 26, 2017 14:07:14 GMT -5 metalsmith said:

I can't see they were regularly flooded and living in pit houses.

"Between A.D. 450 and 1150, Hohokam homes were “pit houses.” People dug shallow pits and built houses inside. Wooden wall posts and roof beams formed structures that were covered with grass and adobe. These houses were arranged in courtyard groups, such that doorways faced each other and opened onto a common central area. By 1150, people were building rooms above ground. The rooms were connected by walls that enclosed adjacent courtyard spaces. Archaeologists refer to these constructions as compounds."

Pit houses are cool in the summer and warm in the winter, but after 1150 they got tired of getting flooded out and built above ground.

Is there any evidence for this or just a suggestion?

If they built many canals then no doubt this would influence groundwater levels unless the canals were well lined or sited below the elevation of the base of the pits. Maybe they flooded themselves out?!

[1dave]

Did you read this review of the archaeological record?

www.researchgate.net/publication/226183054_The_Hohokam_of_Southwest_North_America

[1dave]

It is curious that Coronado missed Cibola by taking a route about a hundred miles to the east of present day Phoenix.
www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends-americas/search-cibola-seven-cities-gold-002603

Believing the priest’s story, the Viceroy decided to commission a larger expedition in the following year, this time under the leadership of the conquistador Francisco Vázquez de Coronado. Hence, in February 1940, Coronado led 350 Spanish soldiers and between 900 and 1300 indigenous allies north in search of the Seven Cities. This expedition, which lasted about two years, was an utter failure. Instead of finding great cities with walls made of gold, Coronado and his men only found modest indigenous villages with walls of adobe mud. As a result, many men, including Coronado himself, became bankrupt when the expedition returned to Mexico City empty handed.

[1dave]

I just found this interesting theory on the founding of the 7 cities of Gold.

ageofex.marinersmuseum.org/index.php?type=webpage&id=62

Cibola and Quivira - 1722
Two of the the Legendary Seven Cities of Gold

Carte du Mexique
This map illustrates something that Europeans sought during the Age of Exploration: the cities of Cibola and Quivira, two of the legendary Seven Cities of Gold. On this map, Cibola and Quivira are placed in present-day Arizona and Colorado respectively.

Spanish lore has it that when the Moors invaded Spain in the eighth century, seven bishops fled to far away lands to protect treasured religious relics, and founded the cities of Cibola and Quivira. In the years that followed, the legend grew, indicating that each of the seven bishops had founded a city, and that these seven cities enjoyed incredible wealth.

Europeans, the Spanish in particular, actively searched for the Seven Cities of Gold as they began exploring North America. They did so though without an exact understanding of what they were looking for; their knowledge was unreliable, based on misinterpretation, speculation, or outright misinformation. Consequently, Cibola and Quivira are placed in various locations in the American Southwest on certain maps into the early 18th century.

Edit 7/24/18
The above link no longer works. Here is another.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quivira

Quivira is a place named by explorer Francisco Vásquez de Coronado in 1541, for the mythical "Seven Cities of Gold" that he never found. The location of Quivira is believed by most authorities to be in central Kansas near present-day Lyons extending northeastern to Salina. The Quivirans were the forebears of the modern day Wichita Indians and Caddoan tribes, such as the Pawnee or Arikara.

In 1540, the Spaniard, Francisco Vásquez de Coronado, led a large expedition north from Mexico to search for wealth and the "Seven Cities of Cibola". Instead of wealth, he found farming peoples living in an array of communities and villages in what are today Arizona and New Mexico. These were the Apache, Navajo, Hopi, Zuni, and Rio Grande Pueblo Indians of today.

As Coronado arrived at the Rio Grande, he was disappointed by the lack of wealth among the Pueblos, but he heard from an Indian (whom the Spaniards called "the Turk") of a wealthy civilization named "Quivira" far to the east, where the chief supposedly drank from golden cups hanging from the trees. Hearing of this, Coronado led his army of more than one thousand Spaniards and Indian aides onto the Great Plains in 1541. The Turk was his guide to Quivira.

On his journey, Coronado traversed the panhandle of Texas. He found two groups of Indians, the Querechos and the Teyas. He was heading southeast when the Teyas told him that the Turk was taking him the wrong direction and that Quivira was to the north. It appears the Turk was luring the Spaniards away from New Mexico with tales of wealth in Quivira, hoping perhaps that they would get lost in the vastness of the Plains. Coronado sent most of his slow-moving army back to New Mexico. With 30 mounted Spaniards, priests, Indian followers, the Turk, and Teya guides he had forced into service, he changed course northward in search of Quivira. After a march of more than thirty days, he found a large river, probably the Arkansas, and soon met several Indians hunting buffalo. They led him to Quivira.[1]

Description of Quivira

Coronado found Quivira "well settled...The land itself being very fat and black and being very well watered by the rivulets and springs and rivers. I found prunes like those of Spain, and nuts and very good sweet grapes and mulberries." It was, he said, the best land he had seen during his long trek north from Mexico.[2] Coronado spent 25 days in Quivira and traveled about 65 miles (25 leagues) from one end of the country to the other. He found nothing more than straw-thatched villages of up to two hundred houses each and fields of corn, beans, and squash. He found no gold, other than a single small piece which he reasoned had come into the natives' hands from a member of his own expedition.


The Quivirans were simple people. Both men and women were nearly naked. They "were large people of good build" many of the men being over six feet tall. They seemed like giants compared to the Spaniards.[3]

Coronado was escorted to a farther boundary of Quivira, an area called "Tabas," where the neighboring land of Harahey began. He summoned the "Lord of Harahey" who, with two hundred followers, came to meet the Spanish. The Harahey Indians were "all naked—with bows and some sort of things on their heads, and their privy parts slightly covered. It was the same sort of place... and of about the same size as Quivira."[4] Disappointed at his failure to find wealth, Coronado turned his face toward New Mexico and marched back across the plains, met up with the rest of his army there, and the following year returned to Mexico. Before leaving Quivira, Coronado ordered the Turk strangled. The Coronado expedition had failed in its quest for gold.

Coronado left behind in New Mexico several Catholic priests and their helpers, including Friar Juan de Padilla. Padilla journeyed back to Quivira with a Portuguese assistant and several Christian Indians. The friar and most of his companions were soon killed by the Quivirans, apparently because he wished to leave their country to visit their enemies, the Guas. The Portuguese and one Indian survived to tell the story.[5]

[1dave]

mohs I finally posted this on Mindat:

www.mindat.org/user-23387.html?pub=2610#5

[mohs]

1dave
Dave that is fine work you did on your mindat page
Kudo’s!
Some great documentation I’ve never seen
Thanks for informing me

best

Ed

[1dave]

Petersen solved the problem early on in his book. Chapter 4 page 77 about Dead Men and chapter 5 page 93 about A Flat Canal.
A massive flood destroyed the 7 Cities of Cibola and made the inhabitants "The Used Up People."

[mohs]

The area is known for flooding and
always as some historical significance

There was a catastrophic flood in Phoenix in 1891, and Waltz's farm was one of many that was devastated. Afterwards, Waltz fell ill (he was rumored to have contracted pneumonia during the flooding). He died on October 25, 1891, after having been nursed by an acquaintance named Julia Thomas (she was usually described as a quadroon). Waltz was buried in Phoenix's Pioneer and Military Memorial Park.

During that flood Jacob Waltz had to climb a mesquite tree to escape the rising waters.
This is when he was rescued and the tale of the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine
was told from his deathbed.

Obviously I’ve explored that area. As of yet-- no found gold
Either from Cibola or Peralta...

[1dave]

Jul 3, 2017 12:44:58 GMT -5 mohs said:

The area is known for flooding and
always as some historical significance

There was a catastrophic flood in Phoenix in 1891, and Waltz's farm was one of many that was devastated. Afterwards, Waltz fell ill (he was rumored to have contracted pneumonia during the flooding). He died on October 25, 1891, after having been nursed by an acquaintance named Julia Thomas (she was usually described as a quadroon). Waltz was buried in Phoenix's Pioneer and Military Memorial Park.

During that flood Jacob Waltz had to climb a mesquite tree to escape the rising waters.
This is when he was rescued and the tale of the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine
was told from his deathbed.

Obviously I’ve explored that area. As of yet-- no found gold
Either from Cibola or Peralta...

repository.azgs.az.gov/sites/default/files/dlio/files/nid1413/tempegi-2-eside2.pdf

[mohs]

Jul 3, 2017 11:52:54 GMT -5 1dave said:

Petersen solved the problem early on in his book. Chapter 4 page 77 about Dead Men and chapter 5 page 93 about A Flat Canal.
A massive flood destroyed the 7 Cities of Cibola and made the inhabitants "The Used Up People."

Discounting Peterson 'loess theory'
for the formation of the Buttes

Could a flood -circa 1500’s -
be large enough to create the Papago Buttes?

if such a catastrophic event occurred
in what would be recent geological time
there seems like there would be more evidence
for a recent catastrophic flood...

the Buttes formation remain mysterious
I need to do a search on Hohokam iconography
for it seem the buttes are very little mentioned

could it be that the Buttes weren't there when the Hohokam thrived...?

[1dave]

Jul 3, 2017 14:57:05 GMT -5 mohs said:

Jul 3, 2017 11:52:54 GMT -5 1dave said:

Petersen solved the problem early on in his book. Chapter 4 page 77 about Dead Men and chapter 5 page 93 about A Flat Canal.
A massive flood destroyed the 7 Cities of Cibola and made the inhabitants "The Used Up People."

Discounting Peterson 'loess theory' for the formation of the Buttes
Could a flood -circa 1500’s -
be large enough to create the Papago Buttes?

if such a catastrophic event occurred
in what would be recent geological time
there seems like there would be more evidence of this catastrophic flood...

the Buttes formation remain mysterious
I need to do a search on Hohokam iconography
for it seem the buttes are very little mentioned
could it be that the Buttes weren't there when the Hohokam thrived...?

No, I am sure that the underlying buttes structure has been there for many millions of years and tipped up long ago. I believe the ground around them was much higher, but constant flooding has covered them with flood debris and slowly lowered the ground around them.

This image from the previous PDF  -

repository.azgs.az.gov/sites/default/files/dlio/files/nid1413/tempegi-2-eside2.pdf

shows debris from 5 floods in the past thousand years and before before their final burial.

[mohs]

One thing you may not know, Dave
Is how the elevation rises around the Buttes area.
When you drive towards the Buttes there is slight elevation climb
I’d say at least 100 feet.

as side note:
From my present location to the Buttes is distance of about 3 miles.
this short drive gets you away from the city lights to view dark sky stars
Plus the higher elevation is fabulous to view for 4th of July fireworks.

I guess this granitic uplift occurred when South Mountain Complex formed?
At least that how I interpret the geologist explanations.

The main site of the Hohokam (Pueblo Grande) is just a short distance away.
At a fast walk you can quickly ascend --gaining higher ground.
This would be a life saver!
For the flood plane is quite extensive in the other 3 directions.
Head north east!

I wonder what type of warning they would have?
Would think they were pretty wise to heavy rain patterns
and would have some foreknowledge if they were in danger.
Perhaps….

[1dave]

A huge flood rumbling down the canyon at several hundred miles per hour - I doubt they had much of a chance.

In clarifying Fray Marcos' route I came across:



alliance.la.asu.edu/dorn/Authenticating_PG_2012.pdf

It is worth examining.

[mohs]

The science of determining age of petroglyphs is intense

The approach starts with embedding a rock chip sampled from the engraving and adjacent control samples such as natural rock faces or clear examples of graffiti in epoxy. The rock chips are positioned in the hardening epoxy with an orientation normal to the coating surface. This positioning allows polishing of a flat surface that provides across-section of the rock coating.

We used electron microprobe operating conditions of 20nA,a take-off angle of 40◦, accelerating voltage of 15kV, and a 300-second counting time to increase sensitivity to a detection limit of about 0.03 percent weight PbO.

dipping rocks in epoxy & polishing them though is hallow art form!

Is the South Mountain Marcos de Niza engraving a fraud? Science concludes they are. I’m not sure. \
Did de Niza observe the Hohokam settlement from this South Mountain perch ? Possible.
Could he have mistaken it for Cibola? Possible.

What I’ve always assumed (and perhaps I need to reevaluate)
is the engraving at South Mountain was done by James Addison Reavis
(circa 1890’s)
to bolster his Peralta Land Grant.

As side note:

It has been suggested, even argued many times, that The Peralta Stone Maps, were made by James Addison Reavis,
as part of his Claim to be a rightful Heir to the "Peralta Land Grant".

This is disputed by the author.
Of course it is possible that James Reavis did create the Stone Tablets.
None of this would negate their authenticity.
They may still be an authentic map-- leading to the sought after treasure.
Cibola or otherwise....

[1dave]

Interesting, BUT what if a nearby volcano erupted lead fumes?

What if someone in the 1800's removed layers by making a rubbing of the inscription?

What if James Addison Reavis actually found the REAL inscription?

The worst "stinkin' thinkin'" to my mind was the original disclamer:
"it is a fraud because Nuevo Mehico didn't come into use for X number of years."

WHAT? Fray Marcos, journeying into a new land from Mexico could not possibly have thought of use the word NEW?
Whoever thought that one up is Muy Estupido!