Pre-Phoenix

[1dave]

Phoenix, with an Elevation of 1,086 ft (331 m), is the capital and most populous city of the U.S. state of Arizona. With 1,563,025 people (as of 2015), Phoenix is the sixth most populous city nationwide, the most populous state capital in the United States, and the only state capital with a population of more than one million residents

Barnes Butte, AZ
Barnes Butte is a Summit in Maricopa County, Arizona with an elevation of 515 meters, or 1,690 feet.

Degrees Minutes Seconds:
Latitude: 33-28'04'' N
Longitude: 111-57'23'' W

Decimal Degrees:
Latitude: 33.467822
Longitude: -111.9562562

For Barnes Butte, 1690 - 1086 = 604 feet above surroundings.
Considering that lot of ground level must have been washed away, that means floodwaters near 500 feet!


I did a little armchair photography from Google Earth.

1. Barnes Butte and McDowell Butte (apparently = "Big Butte." I didn't know about "Little Butte.")
There has been some erosion around the bases. McDowell is a quarter mile long (yellow line).



2. Street View of McDowell/Big Butte.

[metalsmith]

Apr 22, 2017 23:19:02 GMT -5 1dave said:

Phoenix, with an Elevation of 1,086 ft (331 m), is the capital and most populous city of the U.S. state of Arizona. With 1,563,025 people (as of 2015), Phoenix is the sixth most populous city nationwide, the most populous state capital in the United States, and the only state capital with a population of more than one million residents

Barnes Butte, AZ
Barnes Butte is a Summit in Maricopa County, Arizona with an elevation of 515 meters, or 1,690 feet.

Degrees Minutes Seconds:
Latitude: 33-28'04'' N
Longitude: 111-57'23'' W

Decimal Degrees:
Latitude: 33.467822
Longitude: -111.9562562

For Barnes Butte, 1690 - 1086 = 604 feet above surroundings.
Considering that lot of ground level must have been washed away, that means floodwaters near 500 feet!


I did a little armchair photography from Google Earth.

1. Barnes Butte and McDowell Butte (apparently = "Big Butte." I didn't know about "Little Butte.")
There has been some erosion around the bases. McDowell is a quarter mile long (yellow line).



2. Street View of McDowell/Big Butte.

Not taking away from your estimate of thickness (I haven't done one) but just bear in mind that the strata are dipping around 45 degrees (previous links have the specific no) so don't be too reliant on elevation above current sediment plains. Essentially, the buttes are the eroded edges of the strata as they jut up into the sky.

ETA See Fig 2 page 2 here

[1dave]

The Cibola Area:


What underlies Phoenix?

Image by Jan Rasmussen of the Great Unconformity. Note the huge tumbled rocks in the transition.

A fair interpretation can be found in:
repository.azgs.az.gov/sites/default/files/dlio/files/nid1413/tempegi-2-b.pdf
repository.azgs.az.gov/sites/default/files/dlio/files/nid1413/tempegi-2-c.pdf

Some Cross-Sections:


part of the explanations: (The Plan: "a little song, a little dance, a little seltzer in my pants")


2-12 inches?


Good guess, but I think the geologists blew it! They have it listed as Tertiary.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vargas_tragedy
The 1999 Vargas tragedy was a disaster that struck the Vargas State of Venezuela on 15 December 1999, when the torrential rains and the flash floods and debris flows that followed on December 14–16 which killed tens of thousands of people, destroyed thousands of homes, and led to the complete collapse of the state's infrastructure. According to relief workers, the neighborhood of Los Corales was buried under 3 metres (9.8 ft) of mud and a high percentage of homes were simply swept away to the ocean. Whole towns like Cerro Grande and Carmen de Uria completely disappeared. As much as 10% of the population of Vargas perished during this event.[2]


A 2.9-meter (9 ft 6 in) thick debris flow deposit from December 1999 is exposed by river incision during late-stage floods.

That was only 9 feet.
Single boulders at Barnes Butte are up to 15 feet tall all by themselves!

Geologists are seeing the coated granite layers as something they are not.

azgeology.azgs.az.gov/azgs/image-of-the-day/images/geology-papago-buttes-phoenix-az

Nov. 7, 2013 | Papago Buttes | Phoenix, Arizona - Photo & caption by Wayne Ranney

The Papago Buttes are situated about five miles east of downtown Phoenix Arizona and contain such outstanding landforms that they were formally declared Papago Saguaro National Monument in 1914 (but withdrawn in 1930). The buttes are composed of steeply tilted beds of the Camels Head Formation, a mid-Tertiary well-consolidated sedimentary breccia with fluvial conglomerate, sandstone and siltstone. The beds tilt down to the southwest and strike northwest/southeast. These sediments were trapped between half-grabens that formed when the South Mountain Metamorphic Core Complex developed during the Mid-Tertiary Orogeny in central Arizona. The Buttes are now protected within Papago Park, jointly managed by the cities of Phoenix and Scottsdale.

[1dave]

Papago Park Topo. Barnes Butte tops out at 1745', McDowell at 1663'.



Long Exposed Fresh Looking Rocks on top of those buttes -
that crumble in Ed's (mohs) fingers cannot be a million years old!

[mohs]

I offer this video only because of the geological graphics

as I think it demonstrates some of the forces that

may have played a role in the red bed deposits

presently under discussion









If I was a geologist and a web master of any salt worth

I'd like to see a graphic done of the Papago Butte region

but I suppse the above provides some conceptulation

I'm on differnt computer
in differnt location
so some of my typos
may be worse than usual
thanks for understanding

mohs

[mohs]

from the analysis so far and consideration

can we conclude that the granite breccia clastic boulders and the red beds occurred simultaneously ?

Specifically are the clastics breccia granite boulders and chunks embedded

in the buttes

did they occur at the same time as the red bed matrix ?

If so was that a mudslide event?

That's my question



hopefully I'm stating it precisely enough

to avoid overlapping confusions

[1dave]

Geologists think the buttes are part of the Camels Head Formation.

[1dave]

Apr 23, 2017 13:28:34 GMT -5 mohs said:

from the analysis so far and consideration

can we conclude that the granite breccia clastic boulders and the red beds occurred simultaneously ?

Specifically are the clastics breccia granite boulders and chunks embedded

in the buttes

did they occur at the same time as the red bed matrix ?

If so was that a mudslide event?

That's my question



hopefully I'm stating it precisely enough

to avoid overlapping confusions

From my distant perch, I think the granite peaks are Precambrian. The mud and rocks are from 300 years ago.

[mohs]

Apr 23, 2017 13:38:32 GMT -5 1dave said:

Geologists think the buttes are part of the Camels Head Formation.

[1dave]

They don't look anything alike to me.

[mohs]

I offer this video to help flesh out the thread



even though most this information is of local interest only
nonetheless, other people do web searches for LDM & such
& this invaluable link on RTH will pop up
Very important to those searchers
Of which I thank Dave for starting this thread.

In the meantime I contemplating 300 year ago ‘Event'

[1dave]

Interesting, but a little east, as indeed Coronado was.

[mohs]

Go west young man!



part of the Cibola Project....

[1dave]

Thanks Ed! I glad some are interested in Coronado's path.
The way I read Frey Marcos' account, Coronado went north through middle Mexico into New Mexico to avoid Cibola.
and he had a far smaller company - 55 horsemen.

To get to Cibola a route several hundred miles to the west is required, North along the west coast of Mexico, close to the first route depicted.

[metalsmith]

I watched the various videos - thank you!

Those guys were chasing shadows though weren't they? At the cost of significant loss of life. Still great for exploration. I liked how the two head Spanish honcho's high-tailed it back to Spain leaving the slave as the guy who knew most about what was what and leading the next stage of the exped (still as a slave mind)!

Isn't that the paradigm that modern business is built on?

[1dave]

The greatest mystery for me is all those caves in the heart of 2,000 years if civilization.

IF, as the geologists state, they were carved out by the wind over millions of years - then the material that was in them is long gone.

Unfortunately I can't get there in person, but looking at the photos, ALMOST ALL of the cave interior material is lying right out in front and below each of them!

People from the beginning have adorned cave walls. I haven't seen a single report of the Cibola Civilization doing a single thing with them. Although someone did this - called Montezuma's Castle.

[mohs]

I like to tell the story of 45 years ago when we visited Tonto National Monument.
This is on the backside of the Superstition Mountains




We had made a day of traveling the Apache Trail.
That is an excursion through the Supers on the way to Roosevelt Lake.
The trail is only 50 miles long but it takes a good 4 hours to travel
as its dirt, narrow, and awesome.

So to finish the route and get back to Phoenix
you go around the back of the Superstitions>
through Globe Arizona on Hwy 60
A fantastic day drive.



it was getting late on a February day .
I stopped the car to view & tour the Tonto National Monument.
At that time you could freely walk up to the cave dwellings to explore.
What a view from up there!

These dwellings were made by the Salado Indians
(relations to the Hohokam)

You could see the charred ceiling in the caves
where the ancient families made their fires for
warmth cooking light.

And did I mention the View!



Well dusk was approaching. Off in the distance huge dark storm clouds were gathering.
You could hear the low rumble of the thunder and see bolts of lightening flash.
It was coming our direction --about 45 minutes off.
I was digging the show, just watching it,
and wondering how the earlier inhabitants
must have enjoyed the show and being cautious in its approach.

At that time my 6 year old daughter grabbed my hand and said:

‘Daddy we better go. Before the Indians get back!’

I said: ‘ya know ShellyBelly -- your right.'
’
And we meandered down the path to the luxury of our auto
and off we went to Globe.

[1dave]

In 2001, James M. Bayman of University of Hawai'i System department of Anthropology wrote a 57 page review of the various interpretations of archaeology of the "Hohokam" - so labeled by Gladwin in 1937.
it can be downloaded as a PDF from here:

www.researchgate.net/publication/226183054_The_Hohokam_of_Southwest_North_America


Cibola Whiteware






Casa Grande

[1dave]

Labels have a powerful effect on human minds.

When the Spaniards first came to Mexico in 1427, everywhere they heard of "Cibola".

In 1937 Gladwin applied the label "Hohokam" which is now used almost exclusively.

In the 1990's "O'odham" began to work it's way into archaeological studies.

Zuni, Papago, Pima, all seem now to be involved with this emerging label.

Some of THEIR ideas:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27itoi

I'itoi, the Man in the Maze - Image from baskets, rock art, etc.

Iʼitoi or Iʼithi is, in the cosmology of the O'odham peoples, the mischievous creator god who resides in a cave below the peak of Baboquivari Mountain, a sacred place within the territory of the Tohono O'odham Nation. O'odham oral history describes I'itoi bringing Hohokam people to this earth from the underworld. Hohokam are ancestors of both the Tohono O'odham and the Akimel O'odham (River People). He is also responsible for the gift of the Himdag, a series of commandments guiding people to remain in balance with the world and interact with it as intended.

Name

The Pima also refer to I'itoi as Se:he "Elder Brother", also See-a-huh.[1] The term Iʼithi is a dialectal variant used by the Hia C-eḍ O'odham.

He is most often referred to as the Man in the Maze, a reference to a design appearing on O'odham basketry and petroglyphs. This positions him at the entry to a labyrinth. This labyrinth is believed by the Akinel O'odham peoples to be a floorplan of his house, and by the Tohono O'odham to be a map giving directions to his house.
Modern appearance

The Man in the Maze motif appears frequently in contemporary crafts and art of the American Southwest, most prominently by Tohono O'odham silversmiths in rings and other jewelry and by Akinel O'odham artisans in baskets. Among these groups, the pattern has been very popular since the 1900s. Every basket pattern has a "mistake," called a dau ("door"), which is intentionally integrated into its design so that the spirit of the basket can be released.
Legend

Tohono O'odham storytellers shared the following story in the late 1930s with Ruth Murray Underhill, which she recorded in her book, Singing For Power:

The world was made by Earth-maker out of the dirt and sweat which he scraped from his skin... the flat earth met the sky with a crash like that of falling rocks, and from the two was born Iitoi, the protector of Papagos. He had light hair and a beard. [] Iitoi and Earth-maker shaped and peopled the new world, and they were followed everywhere by Coyote, who came to life uncreated and began immediately to poke his nose into everything. In this new world there was a flood, and the three agreed before they took refuge that the one of them who should emerge first after the subsidence of the waters should be their leader and have the title of Elder Brother. It was Earth-maker, the creator, who came forth first, and Iitoi next, but Iitoi insisted on the title and took it. [] Iitoi "brought the people up like children" and taught them their arts, but in the end he became unkind and they killed him.... But Iitoi, though killed, had so much power that he came to life again. Then he invented war. He decided to sweep the earth of the people he had made. [] He needed an army and for this purpose he went underground and brought up the Papagos. [] They live in a land scattered with imposing ruins which belonged... to the Hohokum, "the people who are gone". [] Iitoi drove them, some to the north and some to the south... "Iitoi had a song for everything". Though his men did the fighting, Iitoi confirmed their efforts by singing the enemy into blindness and helplessness. [] Iitoi has retired from the world and lives, a little old man, in a mountain cave. Or, perhaps he has gone underground.

Oral history

According to O'odham oral history, the labyrinth design depicts experiences and choices individuals make in the journey through life. In the middle of the "maze," a person finds their dreams and goals. When one reaches the center, the individual has a final opportunity (the last turn in the design) to look back upon choices made and the path taken, before the Sun God greets us, blesses us and passes us into the next world.

As told by Alfretta Antone:

Elder Brother lived in the maze ... and the reason why he lived in the maze was because ... I think how I'm gonna say this ... magician or oh, medicine man that can disappear, and that can do things, heal people and things like that ... that was Elder Brother ... Se:he ... they called him ... he lived in there ... but he had a lot of enemies so he made that, and to live in there people would go in there but they couldn't find him ... they would turn around and go back.

But in real life ... when you look at the maze you start from the top and go into the maze ... your life, you go down and then you reach a place where you have to turn around ... maybe in your own life you fall, something happens in your home, you are sad, you pick yourself up and you go on through the maze ... you go on and on and on ... so many places in there you might ... maybe your child died ... or maybe somebody died, or you stop, you fall and you feel bad ... you get up, turn around and go again ... when you reach that middle of the maze ... that's when you see the Sun God and the Sun God blesses you and say you have made it ... that's where you die.

The maze is a symbol of life ... happiness, sadness ... and you reach your goal ... there's a dream there, and you reach that dream when you get to the middle of the maze ... that's how I was told, my grandparents told me that's how the maze is.

[1dave]

What happened to the Cibola/Hohokam civilization? Bayman wrote:

Agents of Change and Collapse

Explanations of the Hohokam demise vary significantly (see review in Chenault, 1996, pp. 167–221), and include droughts and floods (e.g., Gregory, 1991; Huckleberry, 1999; Nials et al., 1986; cf. Waters and Ravesloot, 2001); warfare, either internecine or external (e.g., LeBlanc, 1999); and disease, either endogenous (local) or European-introduced (e.g., Di Peso, 1956, p. 539; Dobyns, 1983; Fink, 1991a,b; Ramenofsky, 1987, pp. 137–176; Reff, 1990, 1992; Roberts and Ahlstrom, 1997).

Other explanations include a Salado invasion that disrupted Hohokam society (Haury, 1945), agricultural field salinization (Haury, 1976, p. 355), soil degradation (cf. Huckleberry, 1992, p. 237), canal sedimentation (Dart, 1986) and earthquakes (Cushing, referenced in Haury, 1945, p. 210) (summarized in Chenault, 1996, pp. 221–222).
Notably, Piman oral histories offer support for the role of Hohokam warfare and flooding in the early post-Formative (Bahr et al., 1994; Teague, 1989, 1993). Hydrological streamflow data arguably support interpretations that floods took place in the Salt River watershed at various times in the Hohokam sequence (Nials et al., 1986).
Consequently, the role of floods in a Hohokam “collapse” is favored by many archaeologists working in the Phoenix Basin core (e.g., Gregory, 1991; Howell, 1993, p. 11; Nials et al., 1986), although acceptance of this
viewpoint is certainly not unanimous (Chenault, 1996, p. 200; Waters and 292 Bayman Ravesloot, 2001). Rather, growing numbers of archaeologists are dissatisfied with predominantly ecological explanations of precontact change in the North American Southwest (e.g., Ensor, 2000; Preucel, 1996). Moreover, the role of disease must be assessed in further detail as chronological control is eventually strengthened in the Sonoran Desert. Reff (1992) and others (e.g., Fish et al., 1994) offer the provocative argument that Hohokam society was not truncated until the introduction of European diseases in the sixteenth century. Chronometric dates from Hohokam sites that were potentially occupied in the early 1500s (e.g., Howell, 1993) underscore the necessity of
refining the latter phases of the chronological sequence.

theresilientearth.com/?q=content/climate-apocalypse-industry

The Maya are not the only people who's demise is being reevaluated. The Hohokam peoples occupied a wide area of south-central Arizona from roughly Flagstaff south to the Mexican border. They are thought to have originally migrated north out of Mexico around 300 BC to become skillful irrigation farmers. They constructed vast irrigation systems with extensive canals and villages with ball courts, plazas, and platform mounds. It was a complex society that lasted until around 1450 AD. Then the population vanished, the canals were forgotten, and even outlying areas were abandoned. The abandonment appeared total.


The Hohokam build complex canals and villages.

The traditional explanation for the Hohokam's collapse is a sudden onslaught of flooding that destroyed the canals with an assist from cropland salinization and overpopulation. Others see European diseases, arriving after 1500 AD, as the ultimate culprit.