jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 9, 2020 7:46:56 GMT -5
Most processed bulk kaolin is processed and filtered and liquid settled until 200 mesh silica and larger is removed. However if the kaolin is being used for make up, paper coatings, medicine, etc it is likely filtered to much finer than 200 mesh. If not these particles would effect application quality and/or settle to the bottom if suspended in liquid. Such specifications are not stated on this Kaolin Pectate 4 bottle but there are no instructions to 'Shake Before Using'. It does not seem to settle to bottom. This is telling that it must not have any large (200 mesh+) particles in it. Large processing plant in Georgia
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 9, 2020 8:02:27 GMT -5
Some of the batch after 30 hour pre-polish. Slight matte 'pre-polish' finish is accurate in photo. In my experience using AO 220 as pre-polish this happened unusually quickly. AO 14,000 will take this finish to a high polish easily and quickly. Fast process times are convenient but they also suggest high quality finishes as end result. Water was added at 24 hours since the slurry did get too thick to allow free movement. Telling that plenty of material was removed from the rocks.
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Post by Mel on Sept 9, 2020 9:03:58 GMT -5
jamesp - You can't tell us you used the kaolin pectin for puppies and then not show photos! Your stones look amazing!! I would've thought they'd had a much longer trip through the tumblers for that. You have made a much stronger argument for me getting a vibe now. My wallet is not impressed. You said you use kaolin mainly for vibes & larger grit in rotary, correct? Does kaolin function similarly to the Misers Mix I've read about? Sorry for the questions, I am just learning so much from everything you share! Off to do even MORE reading....
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Post by Bob on Sept 9, 2020 10:29:23 GMT -5
I don't think amusement is to be assumed, it might be fascination like me. This is very interesting.
Rotary is all I do, so my experience can't translate to vibes. It took me a couple of years to develop the skills to properly fill the barrels to get good slurry going. This just takes experience and judgement and is part of the nebulous "art form" of tumbling. For instance, filling a barrel with rounded rocks partially rough ground already vs. with rough cornered never tumbled rocks take a whole different fill level. Since the first couple of years, I've been pretty consistent with getting great slurries in rough grind 50-60, 80, and 220. Sometimes I miss and get too watery in 600 and 1,000, but seldom have any damage anymore. I did learn though that high RPMs combined with too thin slurries is asking for trouble, so after slowing my RPMs I almost never get damage no matter what.
But in those beginning years, I tried that Covington Old Timers mix, which helped, and I found out it was probably bentonite clay. So I took to buying just bentonite clay on the internet which is super cheap and boy does a little bit go a long way. I think I was using 2 tablespoons in a 40lb barrel for instance. And the slurry would be very slimy when recharged. After it ran out a year later, I tried rough grind w/o it and the results where the same, so I just stopped buying it.
I want to experiment with this Kaolin, especially the next time I do some touchy material. The first thing that comes to mind is could it help with obsidian.
If this Kaolin costs more than bentonite clay, the clay might save some money, though of course it's a dry powder not a liquid to begin with.
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pizzano
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Post by pizzano on Sept 9, 2020 10:45:05 GMT -5
jamesp - You can't tell us you used the kaolin pectin for puppies and then not show photos! Your stones look amazing!! I would've thought they'd had a much longer trip through the tumblers for that. You have made a much stronger argument for me getting a vibe now. My wallet is not impressed. You said you use kaolin mainly for vibes & larger grit in rotary, correct? Does kaolin function similarly to the Misers Mix I've read about? Sorry for the questions, I am just learning so much from everything you share! Off to do even MORE reading.... I'll chime in here Mel........since I use the product mentioned.
The "Miser Mix" you may be referring to is an exclusive Covington Engineering product.......They mine it locally here in SoCal (nobody will tell you where) and used to process it here before they moved their operation to Idaho.......:
It's a water soluble clay compound that speeds up the slurry process during grinding stages in both rotary and vibe applications......60/90 to 800 grit. Not to be used during pre and polishing stages. I use it all the time in bowl vibe applications, doesn't take very much, less then a tsp per lb of stones in a vibe and about a tsp per lb in rotary..........makes quick work developing a very good slurry. It's a little pricey ($7.00 per 12oz), but it can be stretched a long way since it takes so little regardless if your grinding with Alum Oxide or Silicon Carbide grits.....!
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 9, 2020 11:04:56 GMT -5
jamesp - You can't tell us you used the kaolin pectin for puppies and then not show photos! Your stones look amazing!! I would've thought they'd had a much longer trip through the tumblers for that. You have made a much stronger argument for me getting a vibe now. My wallet is not impressed. You said you use kaolin mainly for vibes & larger grit in rotary, correct? Does kaolin function similarly to the Misers Mix I've read about? Sorry for the questions, I am just learning so much from everything you share! Off to do even MORE reading.... Vibe is critical. Not required but certainly quicker and probably friendlier on soft stuff like glass/obsidian. Yes the unprocessed back yard kaolin dose great suspending 30 grit and larger silicon carbide in the rotary. But this is a first - using kaolin as a slurry in the vibe. Kaolin is the go-to slurry for industrial polishing operations, why not try it on rocks ! Yes, Miser Mix uses the same principle as kaolin. Kaolin in composed primarily of felspar, miser is another named clay variety. I am a slurry a slurry junky. I believe it is key to efficient protective tumbling.
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pizzano
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Post by pizzano on Sept 9, 2020 11:31:57 GMT -5
I don't think amusement is to be assumed, it might be fascination like me. This is very interesting. Rotary is all I do, so my experience can't translate to vibes. It took me a couple of years to develop the skills to properly fill the barrels to get good slurry going. This just takes experience and judgement and is part of the nebulous "art form" of tumbling. For instance, filling a barrel with rounded rocks partially rough ground already vs. with rough cornered never tumbled rocks take a whole different fill level. Since the first couple of years, I've been pretty consistent with getting great slurries in rough grind 50-60, 80, and 220. Sometimes I miss and get too watery in 600 and 1,000, but seldom have any damage anymore. I did learn though that high RPMs combined with too thin slurries is asking for trouble, so after slowing my RPMs I almost never get damage no matter what. But in those beginning years, I tried that Covington Old Timers mix, which helped, and I found out it was probably bentonite clay. So I took to buying just bentonite clay on the internet which is super cheap and boy does a little bit go a long way. I think I was using 2 tablespoons in a 40lb barrel for instance. And the slurry would be very slimy when recharged. After it ran out a year later, I tried rough grind w/o it and the results where the same, so I just stopped buying it. I want to experiment with this Kaolin, especially the next time I do some touchy material. The first thing that comes to mind is could it help with obsidian. If this Kaolin costs more than bentonite clay, the clay might save some money, though of course it's a dry powder not a liquid to begin with. "probably bentonite clay."
The assumption would be incorrect......based on discussions had with the Covington folks. Little to no Bentonite material is found or mined in this part of the Country. I got a hint as to where they get their stuff from when one of their techs and I bumped into each other out in a mining location I frequent. Mainly a Lime and concrete gravel operation that's been here for years near the north end of the Santa Ana River.........still haven't pin-pointed it yet, maybe due to some areas of the mine being secured by high fences and security cameras......lol
Two years to develop satisfactory rotary slurry methods, sure seems like a long time for an educated avid rock tumbling enthusiast........most would have walked away from that aspect of the hobby long before that......?.......determination pays off I guess.
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Post by Mel on Sept 9, 2020 11:50:12 GMT -5
jamesp - Not gonna share the pup pics eh? I've used kaolin in soap making; like it a lot from that side of things. It's commonly used in shaving soaps because of the slickness and ability to let a razor glide without pulling the skin. It's fascinating that using a larger size grit turns it the opposite way! I'll have to give it a whirl.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 9, 2020 11:55:24 GMT -5
Due to the intense use of kaolin in so many precise applications I am hoping this Kaolin Pectate 4 has been screened of silica particles of a small enough size to do the pre-polish and polish in a vibe pizzano. About to find out when I run these stones in polish using the kaolin pectate !!
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 9, 2020 11:59:29 GMT -5
I used to know the type of clay Covington uses. I was mentioned in their old ads pizzano. No matter, there are many types of kaolin clay as there are all clay varieties. Most are defined by their source location.
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pizzano
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Post by pizzano on Sept 9, 2020 12:10:45 GMT -5
I used to know the type of clay Covington uses. I was mentioned in their old ads pizzano . No matter, there are many types of kaolin clay as there are all clay varieties. Most are defined by their source location. I remember that James.......you were the one that told me about Old Miser a few years back.......that's what got me looking into Covington Engineering Lapidary......once I realized there establishment (was) only a few blocks from my office, I started spending money there frequently......lol
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 9, 2020 12:21:14 GMT -5
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 9, 2020 12:36:09 GMT -5
I used to know the type of clay Covington uses. I was mentioned in their old ads pizzano . No matter, there are many types of kaolin clay as there are all clay varieties. Most are defined by their source location. I remember that James.......you were the one that told me about Old Miser a few years back.......that's what got me looking into Covington Engineering Lapidary......once I realized there establishment (was) only a few blocks from my office, I started spending money there frequently......lol Covington is about the best supply of diverse technical lapidary knowledge and equipment in the country. You are fortunate to be so close to them. I believe a Covington employee told me the story about the clay they use for Miser. I think it is mined near Redland.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 9, 2020 12:37:09 GMT -5
i bought an 18 inch saw from Covington. They served and trained me well on it's use.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 9, 2020 12:39:17 GMT -5
jamesp - Not gonna share the pup pics eh? I've used kaolin in soap making; like it a lot from that side of things. It's commonly used in shaving soaps because of the slickness and ability to let a razor glide without pulling the skin. It's fascinating that using a larger size grit turns it the opposite way! I'll have to give it a whirl. I got in trouble chasing the pups around with the drone. Wife had to discipline... Do you get kaolin in dried chunks or a liquid ?
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Post by joshuamcduffie on Sept 9, 2020 12:57:46 GMT -5
I remember that James.......you were the one that told me about Old Miser a few years back.......that's what got me looking into Covington Engineering Lapidary......once I realized there establishment (was) only a few blocks from my office, I started spending money there frequently......lol Covington is about the best supply of diverse technical lapidary knowledge and equipment in the country. You are fortunate to be so close to them. I believe a Covington employee told me the story about the clay they use for Miser. I think it is mined near Redland. Do you think Covington is mining it in Idaho now?
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pizzano
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Post by pizzano on Sept 9, 2020 13:07:39 GMT -5
I remember that James.......you were the one that told me about Old Miser a few years back.......that's what got me looking into Covington Engineering Lapidary......once I realized there establishment (was) only a few blocks from my office, I started spending money there frequently......lol Covington is about the best supply of diverse technical lapidary knowledge and equipment in the country. You are fortunate to be so close to them. I believe a Covington employee told me the story about the clay they use for Miser. I think it is mined near Redland. Was fortunate.....they moved their operation to Idaho.....but still get their Miser material out here.
That mining operation I spoke of is in Redlands.........There are two locations in Redlands where clay's are somewhat abundant......that mine and one east and south a couple miles, deep into a hillside, owned by two citrus growers........we've done some grading work for them in the past. Nice folks, but very tight lipped with info and access. Only hounding I've done there was surface finds while working.........a natural spring runs through the property year long, think they lease or sell to a local bottling company.......seen Arrowhead Springs tanker trucks up there a few times....wouldn't surprise me.
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Post by Bob on Sept 9, 2020 14:02:50 GMT -5
I live in a part of the country so laden with montmorillonite clay that it causes many building foundation problems that frustrate architects and engineers.
Wish I had compared the bentonite I bought online to the Covington Old Miser when I had both, but never thought of it. Could have formed a colloidal solution in two clear glasses and compared. If memory serves, the Miser was mostly tan and the bentonite was mostly grey, but I'm not certain I'm remembering it correctly. Seemed like the slurry was about the same with both. I never used either in polish--not trusting for that.
My results started improving when I started using dirty rinse water in next batch, and leaving a bit of prior slurry in the barrel. For instance, on my 40lb barrel, I first put on elbow length nitrile gloves and fish out the rocks to my rinse area. Then I pour out the slurry, but leave about 1/2 to 1" in the bottom which remains there to help the overall slurry in the next batch after I add water. I've been doing this about 3-4 years and my production has increased and the resultant slurry after a week long run has been ending up just right. I never skip a grit step though in the same barrel. For instance, if I need to run a 600 grit in a barrel, I would only do that after first doing 220, 600, or something finer, in that barrel, never with anything larger than 220. I want to avoid any grit problems. This also means I never have to wash or rinse barrels. But when I get ready for a polish run, it's a whole different story. No matter what was in the barrel before--600 or 1,000 or even polish--I clean the dickens out of it and am super careful with "lapidary hygiene".
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Post by Mel on Sept 9, 2020 14:56:40 GMT -5
jamesp - Not gonna share the pup pics eh? I've used kaolin in soap making; like it a lot from that side of things. It's commonly used in shaving soaps because of the slickness and ability to let a razor glide without pulling the skin. It's fascinating that using a larger size grit turns it the opposite way! I'll have to give it a whirl. I got in trouble chasing the pups around with the drone. Wife had to discipline... Do you get kaolin in dried chunks or a liquid ? Shame on you! I get my kaolin in a powder; that's all I've ever seen from my soap suppliers; needs to blend into oils to make a very fine liquid mix. You can definitely feel a difference on the skin when I've added it. I've been googling all morning trying to find in another format for my rocks.
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jamesp
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Post by jamesp on Sept 9, 2020 19:14:04 GMT -5
Covington is about the best supply of diverse technical lapidary knowledge and equipment in the country. You are fortunate to be so close to them. I believe a Covington employee told me the story about the clay they use for Miser. I think it is mined near Redland. Was fortunate.....they moved their operation to Idaho.....but still get their Miser material out here. That mining operation I spoke of is in Redlands.........There are two locations in Redlands where clay's are somewhat abundant......that mine and one east and south a couple miles, deep into a hillside, owned by two citrus growers........we've done some grading work for them in the past. Nice folks, but very tight lipped with info and access. Only hounding I've done there was surface finds while working.........a natural spring runs through the property year long, think they lease or sell to a local bottling company.......seen Arrowhead Springs tanker trucks up there a few times....wouldn't surprise me.
There are lots of wars over spring and pumped well water in Florida for resale as bottled water. And getting worse. It has to be permitted. Every one has a spaz attack, bottling plants use little water. Reisdents are concerned about them pumping the ground dry NOT. However the phosphate mines are destroying entire county ground water supplies. Clay is an interesting resource. Pitcher mound clay comes from selected locations for it to qualify as official. England has a kaolin mine that has very particular high grade kaolin used for particular applications. Then there is the vintage potters that are very particular about using clays from the 'family' clay pit. Rarely are 2 sources similar. Rest assured Covington will likely continue to maintain the same standard for Miser. I drive 3/4 mile on an ATV to a clay vein exposed by a logging road. Other sources much easier to get but they require relearning the dosage since composition is different. It just happened to be the clay I started with years ago.
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